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Garage JoeMember

Baz posted:
Garage Joe posted:
Baz posted:
~Sweet Summer~ posted:
I was interested to hear on tonight's radio that the petition has over 2 million signatures now, and that some people are suggesting that parliament may debate overruling the decision anyway...

What's the general feeling about this?
Makes a mockery of democracy IMO
I believe it's beyond democracy. We have to protect our economy.
Then what was the point of even having a referendum GJ .....and would you have felt it was legitimate to have a rerun if the vote had gone the other way ?

I'm just taking a lead from that Farrago one. He thought that there should be a rerun if the vote went the other way. He has more influence than me.

6/25/163:04 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

The problem some have is that they are over sensitive.

For example, I say racism was a factor, then it was. No point denying it. No point the right wing thought police haranguing anyone who says the truth. If you interviewed 100 racists, almost all of them would say "out" of the EU because they think the EU single market is a source of unfettered immigration. Most of them would be concerned but a hard core would be actual racists.

Yet I'm being shouted down for stating the obvious. I've met many racists in my time and I'm sure most people have, especially if they are one! I can tell someone who's concerned about immigration (which many are, including myself) and someone who's an out and out racist.

When Farage put up his Nazi style poster, he knew exactly what he was doing and whose instincts he was mobilising. The right wing thought police don't like it, but he wouldn't have done it if he didn't think it would help his vote.

Farage is a nasty piece of work but he's not alone. The right wing rags, like the Sun, Mail and Star, are forever being pulled up on inflaming anti-immigrant sentiment by their poisonous lies and inaccuracies. Those articles change opinions. It isn't just an alternative opinion, it's a concerted effort to bend opinion to a rightist agenda by lies. "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!", so to speak.

6/25/163:12 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

I looked up Brexit Street parties on Google, couldn't find any! How could this be? We've got our country back from the jackboot of the EU! Surely this is on par with VE Day or England's 1966 world cup win?

Farage, the racist, wants it to be known as Independence Day and to be a bank holiday. Yet most of the country, including the idiot Brexit voters who voted never expecting a Brexit win, now realise we've made a big, big mistake.

What a mess we're in. I'll tell you what it feels like, it feels like when someone resides themselves that they're going to drink themselves to death. Then after day 10 of attempted alcoholic suicide finds a reason to live only to sober up and be told by medics that the damage they've done to their organs is irreparable.

6/25/163:45 PM

Garage JoeMember

This is better! I can read it on my iPad!

I still can't believe that so many people went for the pack of lies option-not a single part of it made political or economic sense. Furthermore the experts predicted a crisis of hegemony, destabilisation of the U.K. and Europe, economic meltdown and they have been proved correct.

We are all looking for a way out of this mess and have little time to achieve it. Europe will not want a toxic neighbour and the idea of them waiting until October is pure fantasy.

Parliament must be recalled, they should declare this result void and have a rerun now that the electorate know the true facts.

6/25/163:47 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

Garage Joe posted:
This is better! I can read it on my iPad!
I still can't believe that so many people went for the pack of lies option-not a single part of it made political or economic sense. Furthermore the experts predicted a crisis of hegemony, destabilisation of the U.K. and Europe, economic meltdown and they have been proved correct.
We are all looking for a way out of this mess and have little time to achieve it. Europe will not want a toxic neighbour and the idea of them waiting until October is pure fantasy.
Parliament must be recalled, they should declare this result void and have a rerun now that the electorate know the true facts.

HI Garage, obviously your neck of the woods traditional Labour areas didn't vote to remain but voted to leave.

I had a chat with a Brummie a few months ago, staying in Norwich for a contract, he was quite left wing, talked with pride about Birmingham being the "Workshop of England" or some such but was adamant that Birmingham, as a city, was finished thanks to Muslims and would vote Ukip. I tried to persuade him that the Tories were responsible for manufacturing decline, Ukip were neo-liberal idealogues and would shaft people like him and that Corbyn was not like Blair and genuinely for the working class (as I think he is) but he just wouldn't have it. He accused me of patronising him because I was from a relatively monocultural white area.

Any thoughts?

6/25/163:59 PM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

Following the recent "We didn't know what we was voting for, let's try and overturn it. " comments from some on the Remain side, I had my first sighting of the "Having our cake and eating it." wing of the Leave campaign on ITN tonight.

Cornwall voted to leave, but a politician from there was on the news going on about how the region should still get paid the equivalent of the EU subsidy it's now going to lose. rolleyes

And where does he think this money's going to come from? From the non-existent £350 million that the Brexit lot are now admitting won't be spent on the NHS after all?

rolleyes

6/25/164:06 PM

Former Member

Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out disapp

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government! It's they who set the laws of this country!

6/25/164:09 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

Sprout posted:
Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government! It's they who set the laws of this country!

Couldn't understand Sunderland and a lot of the North East reliant on car manufacture. All the volume car manufacturers based in the UK are foreign businesses. They have zero loyalty the UK. They will leave in a heartbeat unless UK workers can offer ridiculously compromised wages and worker rights, compared to their EU based counter-parts.

We've made ourselves the poor relations to workers in Europe!

6/25/164:17 PM

Former Member

Eugene's Lair posted:
Following the recent "We didn't know what we was voting for, let's try and overturn it. " comments from some on the Remain side, I had my first sighting of the "Having our cake and eating it." wing of the Leave campaign on ITN tonight.

Cornwall voted to leave, but a politician from there was on the news going on about how the region should still get paid the equivalent of the EU subsidy it's now going to lose.
And where does he think this money's going to come from? From the non-existent £350 million that the Brexit lot are now admitting won't be spent on the NHS after all?

If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable crazy

6/25/164:20 PM

Garage JoeMember

On our local North East news they were pointing out the fact that we export more goods to Europe than we import. We have a trade surplus.

To be fair I think the TV companies sought out the worst examples of humanity to comment but "Turkeys voting for Christmas" does not do it justice.

Non-sequitur ***wittery sans pareil.

I am reminded of John Cleese's partner.

Given the premise that all mackerel are fish, and all fish live under water, she deduces that if she buys kippers it will not rain.

On a more amusing note, I was in the Co-op today. In front of me in the queue were a couple of immigrants. The checkout lad said, "Do you want any help packing your bags?"

i thought, "Blimey! The Nazis have started already!"

6/25/164:45 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

Garage Joe posted:
On our local North East news they were pointing out the fact that we export more goods to Europe than we import. We have a trade surplus.
To be fair I think the TV companies sought out the worst examples of humanity to comment but "Turkeys voting for Christmas" does not do it justice.
Non-sequitur ***wittery sans pareil.
I am reminded of John Cleese's partner.
Given the premise that all mackerel are fish, and all fish live under water, she deduces that if she buys kippers it will not rain.

On a more amusing note, I was in the Co-op today. In front of me in the queue were a couple of immigrants. The checkout lad said, "Do you want any help packing your bags?"
i thought, "Blimey! The Nazis have started already!"

Aside from the dark humour, immigrants, it seems are genuinely feeling like they're not wanted. And with just reason due to the normalisation of anti-immigrant sentiment. This country has shifted horribly to the right. I don't know about you Garage Joe but I feel we lost our country on Thursday rather than gained it.

6/25/164:54 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland. I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV. I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!

6/25/165:05 PM

Garage JoeMember

Steady on Carnelian-that's going too far.

Wouldn't you prefer them to go all the way to the final and then get beaten by Germany or France by several goals to nil?

6/25/165:14 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

Garage Joe posted:
Steady on Carnelian-that's going too far.

Wouldn't you prefer them to go all the way to the final and then get beaten by Germany or France by several goals to nil?

No! Because by then I'd be well up for a win! They need to go out now before I soften my hatred for my own country!

It's alright for Jeremy Corbyn, he can hate the country for ever! but my hatred can only last a certain time!

6/25/165:34 PM

Madame ArcatiMember

Carnelian posted:
This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland. I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV. I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!

Crikey, Carnelian! Come on now, get a grip! A lot of us are floundering around in a slough of despair after the recent shenanigans and are looking to the England football team to lift our spirits a tad (don't laugh!)

6/26/1612:24 AM

Former Member

Madame Arcati posted:
Carnelian posted:
This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland. I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV. I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!
Crikey, Carnelian! Come on now, get a grip! A lot of us are floundering around in a slough of despair after the recent shenanigans and are looking to the England football team to lift our spirits a tad (don't laugh!)

laugh

6/26/1612:59 AM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

I see Labour is going into meltdown now too now rolleyes

It is reported that half the shadow cabinet will resign. Hilary Benn has been sacked and Heidi Alexander says she will resign.

6/26/162:03 AM

squiggleMember 10 years

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to explain clearly what I have felt watching Andrew Marr this morning but here goes.

Watching politicians of both main parties and also Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP I get the feeling of a runaway train. They are all busy spouting off about their take on things as a party. The last thing they seem to think about is what the people who elected them want! For instance there was a report about one third of people who voted Labour in the last election no longer willing to vote for that party. As Polly Toynbee said that would be disastrous for the party. I think Andrew Marr echoed that. But there is no correlation for them to think why this should be so. No, we must still forge ahead no matter why these people think the way they do. I am sure it is the same for the Conservative Party and also for the SNP. We simply have to get over to them that it is our views that matter, we elected them not to boss us around and impose their wishes upon us but to carry out our wishes. Anyway that is my, probably naive, view on the matter.

6/26/162:05 AM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

What is the point have politicians on radio/television shows, asking them questions and then talking all over their answers? crazy

John Pienaar, get ya flippin act together and have the decency to let people answer the questions you put to them mad

6/26/162:32 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does, read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

6/26/163:19 AM

El LoroMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Kaffs, your link doesn't work for me and I get this message:

Sorry, this content isn't available at the moment

The link you followed may have expired, or the Page may only be visible to an audience that you aren't in.

6/26/164:33 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

If the result had been this close, but in the favour of Remain, we would still probably be in a fair degree of turmoil - different turmoil, but turmoil nonetheless, as it has caused so much discord!

6/26/164:34 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
If the result had been this close, but in the favour of Remain, we would still probably be in a fair degree of turmoil - different turmoil, but turmoil nonetheless, as it has caused so much discord!

Yes... but we'd be in a turmoil with stronger currency and without the carte blanche that'S been given to racists to abuse anyone they deem not British enough - as the FB link I tried to post shows. A selection of tweets and FB posts from 'foreigners' many British born who are being old by total strangers things along the of 'we won -now feck off home' There's even a t shirt...

6/26/164:45 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Kaffs posted:
https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does, read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?

Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth .

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state

6/26/164:49 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

6/26/165:02 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Sprout posted:
Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government! It's they who set the laws of this country!

I went out for a meal in Sheffield with an old schoolfriend last night. He lives and works in Birmingham, in the car industry. He has a lot of contact with Nissan amongst other large and smaller manufacturers. He was flabbergasted at the result from those areas.

We discussed it all at length along with the decline in manufacturing herein Sheffield. Although to some extent we have seen a new lease of life here with the rise in the arts scene (film, TV and music to name a few) and the two strong universities.

But going back to the original point. I have to question if some people really understood the implications of voting leave when a big part of their local employment is from foreign investors.

6/26/165:03 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

No Baz - of course we don't think 17 million people are racist, but tell me... are we going to kick out every immigrant? I don't believe so (hope not or I don't know who will treat my brothers' cancers or fill our teeth) Do you think that if the exit campaign hadn't relied on letting people believe they would the result would have been the same? What would be ideal would be an honest rerun but I know that isn't going to happen - I'm not stupid, just frustrated and I can't glory in a 'democratic ' result gained by encouraging hate I'm sorry. Also - how anyone with a conscience can support Farage is beyond me.

I've been anti SNP all my life and I'm gutted that I find myself now having to seriously consider how I will vote when indyref2 arrives. Never been so ashamed of our country.

6/26/165:08 AM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Kaffs posted:
https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does, read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB
Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?
Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth .

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state

Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion.

6/26/165:11 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

Fluffs. . Check twitter and FB or just Google post eu referendum racism. Yes, they would still be out there - but they wouldn't feel quite so emboldened to abuse total strangers in the street imo.

6/26/165:12 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

I sat in bed this morning watching the news and politics programmes. I was totally annoyed at the back peddling/arse covering politicians they interviewed.

Now that we are in a position to put direct post Brexit questions to the leave campaigners, it would appear that they are less than forthcoming with answers to how this fictitious pot of cash is going to be spent.

I really wanted to punch IDS who was even trying to deny the meaning of the wording of a poster on his battle bus!

Well if you did not believe it IDS, then why did you not ask for its removal.

6/26/165:12 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

I think the answer is a resounding yes . And , added to which , I bet there were * racists* amongst those who voted Remain as well , who saw a vested intersest in voting the way they did . The bottom line is that unless you are going to set tests as to eligibility/suitability etc. then everyone gets a vote ....whether we agree with their principles or not .

6/26/165:14 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

Also... Baz I get the democracy thing but I don't remember an election before when people were going on telly the next day to openly admit they hadn't realised what they we voting for..and sayings they feel they were mislead.

6/26/165:14 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Kaffs posted:
https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does, read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB
Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?
Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth .

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state
Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion.

But what you are really asking for Kaffs ....and again I don't mean you personally .....is for people to think the way you do . People seem to be saying that everyone who voted Remain is not racist , and had total grasp of the ins and outs ......but I am willing to bet that there were as many that voted Remain who didn't understand what they were voting for as there were Brexit .....but that doesn't devalue their vote , or does it ??

6/26/165:18 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Kaffs posted:
Also... Baz I get the democracy thing but I don't remember an election before when people were going on telly the next day to openly admit they hadn't realised what they we voting for..and sayings they feel they were mislead.

But that doesn't nullify my argument ......or are you saying that people of limited intelligence shouldn't vote . Plus , why is it ok to take what is shown on the media ....which we all know is highly selective .....as gospel one day , and not another ??

6/26/165:21 AM

Former Member

So why if they're racist did they vote in Baz?

6/26/165:21 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Kaffs posted:
https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does, read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB
Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?
Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth .

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state
Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion.

But what right have we to judge that Sprout ? People who voted had obviously thought about which way to vote .....just because someone comes to a different conclusion , for whatever reason , doesn't give us the right to say their vote /intelligence/ principles/ reasons .....whatever you want to call it ....carry less weight than our own ?

6/26/165:25 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

I have to go out in a mo.. so I'M not posting and running but put simplisticly, yes, Baz. In the same way as I believe people who are in prison shouldn't be entitle to vote.. people who incite racial hatred (which is ilegal last time I checked but maybe not for much longer) should either.

Now. I must go or my Dad with think I've abandoned him!

6/26/165:26 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
So why if they're racist did they vote in Baz?

Because it was in their financial interest ? Or they followed blindly a party line ? Their job ? Or as you put it , they didn't understand the question ? There could be a myriad of reasons .....the bottom line is they had a vote and they voted ......and I am willing to bet , had the vote not gone the way it had , no one would have questioned their right to it

6/26/165:29 AM

Former Member

Baz posted:
But what right have we to judge that Sprout ? People who voted had obviously thought about which way to vote .....just because someone comes to a different conclusion , for whatever reason , doesn't give us the right to say their vote /intelligence/ principles/ reasons .....whatever you want to call it ....carry less weight than our own ?

Well, I disagree with that, not everyone did but there you go.

6/26/165:31 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Kaffs posted:
I have to go out in a mo.. so I'M not posting and running but put simplisticly, yes, Baz. In the same way as I believe people who are in prison shouldn't be entitle to vote.. people who incite racial hatred (which is ilegal last time I checked but maybe not for much longer) should either.

Now. I must go or my Dad with think I've abandoned him!

Awww Yes , my housework is suffering to And i totally agree that INCITING racial hatred is wrong, but sadly you can't legislate for what people think ......not unless we invoke 1984

6/26/165:32 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

One last thing on democracy .. why did the House of Commons block the rights of 16 and 17 year olds to vote. To defeat the end of democracy. So older people could have what they want while dressing it up as for the good of the youth who want the oposite and who will have to live with the betrayal.

6/26/165:33 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
But what right have we to judge that Sprout ? People who voted had obviously thought about which way to vote .....just because someone comes to a different conclusion , for whatever reason , doesn't give us the right to say their vote /intelligence/ principles/ reasons .....whatever you want to call it ....carry less weight than our own ?
Well, I disagree with that, not everyone did but there you go.

But they had to have ......otherwise they would have put an X in both boxes What you are saying is that they didn't think about it as much a you would wish ....but it doesn't work that way

6/26/165:35 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Kaffs posted:
One last thing on democracy .. why did the House of Commons block the rights of 16 and 17 year olds to vote. To defeat the end of democracy. So older people could have what they want while dressing it up as for the good of the youth who want the oposite and who will have to live with the betrayal.

I am not even going to answer that Kaffs , cos a) I am tired of being classed as the bad guy cos I am old and exercised my rights And secondly , because I know a lot of these awful baby boomers who voted Remain ....including the one sitting just across from me now

6/26/165:38 AM

Former Member

Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out

Shamefully bumping my own post

6/26/165:39 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Sprout posted:
Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out
Shamefully bumping my own post

Yeah, but we kept on being told that info was being sent to every household giving us the Facts, by the time some people realised this wasn't the case it may have been too late to try and winkle out the necessary info themselves

6/26/165:51 AM

Former Member

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
Sprout posted:
Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out
Shamefully bumping my own post
Yeah, but we kept on being told that info was being sent to every household giving us the Facts, by the time some people realised this wasn't the case it may have been too late to try and winkle out the necessary info themselves

Fluffs, everyone's had from February

6/26/165:53 AM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

A seventh Labour shadow minister has just resigned glance

6/26/165:54 AM

Former Member

Moonie posted:
A seventh Labour shadow minister has just resigned

They were alright to work with him before the election. Turncoats, I say

Just because he's a 'different kind' of leader, they can't handle it

Edit....I meant the EU vote where I said election

6/26/165:56 AM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out
Shamefully bumping my own post

shake shameful laugh

6/26/165:56 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Sprout posted:
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
Sprout posted:
Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out
Shamefully bumping my own post
Yeah, but we kept on being told that info was being sent to every household giving us the Facts, by the time some people realised this wasn't the case it may have been too late to try and winkle out the necessary info themselves
Fluffs, everyone's had from February

No, I didn't get the promised leaflet until sometime in May and it wasn't FACTS it was just a comparison of what both sides were saying about 'cherry picked' issues, not laying out facts about the EU and why we were in it/had joined it in the first place. REAL facts, not various people's opinions, suppositions and theoretical forecasts!

6/26/166:04 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
Sprout posted:
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
Sprout posted:
Sprout posted:
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/video...m-fallout/vi-AAhAH82

The facts were always there dear, if only you'd decided to go and search them out
Shamefully bumping my own post
Yeah, but we kept on being told that info was being sent to every household giving us the Facts, by the time some people realised this wasn't the case it may have been too late to try and winkle out the necessary info themselves
Fluffs, everyone's had from February
No, I didn't get the promised leaflet until sometime in May and it wasn't FACTS it was just a comparison of what both sides were saying about 'cherry picked' issues, not laying out facts about the EU and why we were in it/had joined it in the first place. REAL facts, not various people's opinions, suppositions and theoretical forecasts!

Ditto on all counts EFFT

6/26/166:09 AM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

We never do get the "real facts" about referenda/general elections/local elections.

6/26/166:10 AM

Former Member

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
No, I didn't get the promised leaflet until sometime in May and it wasn't FACTS it was just a comparison of what both sides were saying about 'cherry picked' issues, not laying out facts about the EU and why we were in it/had joined it in the first place. REAL facts, not various people's opinions, suppositions and theoretical forecasts!

Which is why people could've searched them for themselves

6/26/166:11 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Moonie posted:
We never do get the "real facts" about referenda/general elections/local elections.

Exactly

6/26/166:12 AM

Former Member

Moonie posted:
We never do get the "real facts" about referenda/general elections/local elections.

Which is why the Tories were voted back in

6/26/166:12 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
No, I didn't get the promised leaflet until sometime in May and it wasn't FACTS it was just a comparison of what both sides were saying about 'cherry picked' issues, not laying out facts about the EU and why we were in it/had joined it in the first place. REAL facts, not various people's opinions, suppositions and theoretical forecasts!
Which is why people could've searched them for themselves

But not everyone has the wherewithal , time , or inclination to do that Sprout .....and even if they do they are still reading stuff that someone else has written .....I bet you didn't read all the EU statutes etc. .....or did you ?

6/26/166:14 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
We never do get the "real facts" about referenda/general elections/local elections.
Which is why the Tories were voted back in

And why we were stuck with Blair for so long miaows

6/26/166:15 AM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
No, I didn't get the promised leaflet until sometime in May and it wasn't FACTS it was just a comparison of what both sides were saying about 'cherry picked' issues, not laying out facts about the EU and why we were in it/had joined it in the first place. REAL facts, not various people's opinions, suppositions and theoretical forecasts!
Which is why people could've searched them for themselves
But not everyone has the wherewithal , time , or inclination to do that Sprout .....and even if they do they are still reading stuff that someone else has written .....I bet you didn't read all the EU statutes etc. .....or did you ?

But on something as important as this they should've. No, you're right, I didn't read all but I did look at somethings and voted for the future

6/26/166:17 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Right , I'm off to do something really important now and decide what TV to watch .....and it won't be anything to do with footie or the referendum Thanks for the debate

6/26/166:17 AM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
We never do get the "real facts" about referenda/general elections/local elections.
Which is why the Tories were voted back in
And why we were stuck with Blair for so long miaows

I don't agree with that either, he was too much in the Tory's pockets in my opinion

6/26/166:18 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

If you get told it's being laid out on a plate for you, the majority of people are going to wait for that plate!

6/26/167:13 AM

squiggleMember 10 years

I love this quote from FB today

There seems to be a move to make Brexit an agist conflict....they point out that Britains youth voted us in with a 2/3 majority in 1975...but that Britains elderly voted us out this week effectively shafting the youth. What they don't say is that those elderly were the enthusiastic youth of 1975, now armed to the teeth with 41 years worth of hindsight.

6/26/167:27 AM

Madame ArcatiMember

I don't think Johnson etc. wanted a Leave victory either. He looked more shell-shocked than Cameron! Probably just wanted a very narrow Remain win and hope that would be enough to secure a better deal from the EU.

Cameron's left them to sort out the mess and they don't appear to have the faintest idea what they've let themselves (and the country) in for.

6/26/169:29 AM

Madame ArcatiMember

In today's paper someone quoted the following observation from a Facebook contributor:

'The older generation voting to leave the EU is the same as your mate picking the film and then leaving 20 minutes in'

6/26/169:36 AM

Yogi19Member 10 years

This is not a dig at anyone in this thread but something occured to me today.

In so many cultures, older people are respected for the wisdom that tends to come with age and life experience but in the UK today, it seems our older citizens are either being derided for voting 'selfishly/stupidly', or their views are being dismissed as irrelevant because 'they might not be here much longer'.

What a sad state of affairs. disapp

6/26/1612:48 PM

squiggleMember 10 years

Well said Yogi

6/26/161:09 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

squiggle posted:
Well said Yogi

I concur

6/26/161:10 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

velvet donkey posted:
I'll put this here.

Piss off Angus Robertson.

Let me guess ....SNP

6/27/168:14 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

velvet donkey posted:
You're good at this game Baz!

Only cos I cheat and read the news

6/27/168:17 AM

Garage JoeMember

Yogi19 posted:
This is not a dig at anyone in this thread but something occured to me today.
In so many cultures, older people are respected for the wisdom that tends to come with age and life experience but in the UK today, it seems our older citizens are either being derided for voting 'selfishly/stupidly', or their views are being dismissed as irrelevant because 'they might not be here much longer'.
What a sad state of affairs.

My mum is 91 and we are both in our sixties. Obviously we all voted in and so did her friends and ours.

i think there is a bit more to it than age! I thought it more to do with education and background. It really was surprising to find that a lot of people didn't understand the concept of the EC or the financial of market aspects, the important things. It was all about immigration! Thus we had Nissan workers for example voting out. You couldn't make it up!

6/27/168:44 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Garage Joe posted:
Yogi19 posted:
This is not a dig at anyone in this thread but something occured to me today.
In so many cultures, older people are respected for the wisdom that tends to come with age and life experience but in the UK today, it seems our older citizens are either being derided for voting 'selfishly/stupidly', or their views are being dismissed as irrelevant because 'they might not be here much longer'.
What a sad state of affairs.
My mum is 91 and we are both in our sixties. Obviously we all voted in and so did her friends and ours.
i think there is a bit more to it than age! I thought it more to do with education and background. It really was surprising to find that a lot of people didn't understand the concept of the EC or the financial of market aspects, the important things. It was all about immigration! Thus we had Nissan workers for example voting out. You couldn't make it up!

I don't think you can even attribute it to education GJ ....I am what would be termed * highly educated * ....but voted out I think the trouble with all this post referendum analysis is people making sweeping generalizations in order to make their point ....truth is both camps were probably made up of all the various components of society ....but the bottom line is no one actually knows .

6/27/168:54 AM

~Sparkling Summer~Member 10 years

The loophole that could prevent Brexit...

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...tution-a7105181.html

6/27/162:40 PM

~Sparkling Summer~Member 10 years

Interesting reading...

6/27/162:40 PM

Former Member

"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose

6/27/162:45 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose

Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud

6/27/162:48 PM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

6/27/162:51 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

My feelings exactly Moonie

6/27/162:54 PM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose
Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud

Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean just shows the consensus of opinion

6/27/162:55 PM

Former Member

Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for

6/27/162:56 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose
Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud
Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean just shows the consensus of opinion

They haven't finished checking it yet They reckon Bots have been used ....

6/27/162:56 PM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

6/27/162:59 PM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose
Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud
Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean just shows the consensus of opinion
They haven't finished checking it yet They reckon Bots have been used ....

Ok if the right amount is found, I'll take it

6/27/163:01 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for

But how do you know how many of those voting Remain knew either .....

6/27/163:01 PM

Former Member

Moonie posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

YES!! but some people didn't do that!

6/27/163:01 PM

Former Member

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
But how do you know how many of those voting Remain knew either .....

Surely you go with what you have rather than plunging everyone into an abyss. We could've always asked to be out again at a later stage.

I still maintain a lot of it was against the government and about racism rather than the question of the time

6/27/163:04 PM

Jen-StarMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...
YES!! but some people didn't do that!

I did

6/27/163:06 PM

Former Member

Jen-Star posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...
YES!! but some people didn't do that!
I did

I'm not denying you Jen, but when I see, as I have done people on TV being interviewed in the street and asked why they voted out, they told the reporter they didn't know why, totally skews the result if you ask me

6/27/163:09 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
But how do you know how many of those voting Remain knew either .....
Surely you go with what you have rather than plunging everyone into an abyss. We could've always asked to be out again at a later stage.
I still maintain a lot of it was against the government and about racism rather than the question of the time

I think it was more about people being fed up with having their lives run by the unelected barons of Brussels ....or words to that effect The truth is there are probably a myriad of reasons both sides voted the way they did ....doesn't change the result .

6/27/163:10 PM

Former Member

Baz posted:
I think it was more about people being fed up with having their lives run by the unelected barons of Brussels ....or words to that effect The truth is there are probably a myriad of reasons both sides voted the way they did ....doesn't change the result .

No! It's governments that make the rules!

6/27/163:11 PM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

Heads off up the hills to Bedfordshire, nite nite everyone wavey

6/27/163:18 PM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
Baz posted:
Sprout posted:
"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose
Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud
Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean just shows the consensus of opinion
They haven't finished checking it yet They reckon Bots have been used ....

2,371 signatures from The Vatican City alone!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...uffing_ref_petition/

6/27/163:57 PM

Jen-StarMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Sprout posted:
Jen-Star posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
Sprout posted:
Moonie posted:
You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?
I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for
Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...
YES!! but some people didn't do that!
I did
I'm not denying you Jen, but when I see, as I have done people on TV being interviewed in the street and asked why they voted out, they told the reporter they didn't know why, totally skews the result if you ask me

Well no, as there will have been people who voted to remain without any research at all so they would surely cancel each other out somewhat?

6/28/168:39 AM

CarnelianMember 10 years

velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian , for the record , if you read my posts properly , I never called you obnoxious , I said some of the views being expressed were obnoxious ....e.g. hoping that baby boomers lost their pension pots , calling Brexiters idiots , and traitors to their country etc. .....and I stand by that .
Why is it obnoxious when a load of affluent old people who enjoyed free education, low house prices which they've made huge profits on, social mobility, rising living standards voted to curb the life chances of young people and have imposed on 16 year olds something they'll have to live with for decades but couldn't vote for?

The younger generation just seem to have all the burdens and none of the goodies.

I do hope their pensions are hit. It would be karma for how they've thwarted life chances of the younger generation. Obviously there are poor pensioners, struggling pensioners and even pensioners who are doing ok and have worked and deserve what they've got. I certainly wouldn't wish a reversal on what funds they have. I hope their lives improve, but sadly now the vicious market obsessed right are in change, they'll get hammered too. I don't hate the old at all, I just think the affluent old, who did so well out of the state in their day, are being far too selfish. They have a reversal coming to them.

This government has been robbing the young to cater for their ageing affluent voter base. All the cuts have gone to the young while the freebies the affluent old enjoy, remained ring fenced.

I'm sorry, there needs to be some generational fairness because today's young won't have the pensions, the job security, the bricks and mortar equity that many of today's old enjoy.

Maybe some of these affluent old people you appear to despise took their opportunities and actually put the effort in over the course of their lives to get to where they are in retirement.

Oh of course, they created two property booms by sheer hard work! Nothing to do with successive neo-liberal governments, dismantling the welfare state for shareholder profit, selling off the family silver, not building enough homes!

Yes, they took their opportunities, and have consistently voted to close the door on those same opportunities to the young.

Don't give me that 'put the effort in', the baby boomer generations were NO MORE hard working than any other generation. Spare me the generational bigotry.

If you were around in the 60s and 70s or read up on those eras, you'd know there was strong public animosity towards the unemployed and certainly the attitudes of the young - yet apparently that opinion has been revised by Baby boomers to the view that every single person of that generation was hard working in the 60s and 70s.

Rubbish!

7/7/164:15 PM

Garage JoeMember

I am now able to reveal that we weren't hard working compared to current generations. It's well worth pointing out that we had the best of everything; trade union protection, defined working hours, benefits, defined pensions and so on.

It has been shocking to watch subsequent generations throw it all away.

7/7/1611:21 PM

MoonieMember VIP10 years

That/those post(s) fill the whole of my screen eek

7/8/169:44 AM

Madame ArcatiMember

I've been called worse!

7/8/1611:06 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

It's really making the news at the moment. Despite calls the to contrary, it looks like May is not for turning!

disapp

10/12/1610:10 AM

Former Member

I don't think she was ever an 'innee' anyway. She goes with the flow of the time when she thinks it's right

10/12/1612:03 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

May is already talking about letting the MP's vote, although two days ago she said not. Tell you what, if we don;t sort this out we are seriously screwed and for many years to come.

No plan, not a clue what we are doing and other countries already advising firms not to sign contracts here disapp

10/12/161:11 PM

Former Member

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

May is already talking about letting the MP's vote, although two days ago she said not. Tell you what, if we don;t sort this out we are seriously screwed and for many years to come.

No plan, not a clue what we are doing and other countries already advising firms not to sign contracts here

nod

10/12/161:12 PM

Garage JoeMember

I'm surprised that no-one commented on two of today's newspaper front pages!

Daily Mail

"Damn the unpatriotic Bremoaners and their plot to subvert the will of the British people."

Daily Express

"Time to silence EU Exit whingers."

Völkischer Beobachter

"Erste maßnahmen der Reichsregierung Hitler"

10/12/162:52 PM

Former Member

I'm just watching the newspaper review for tomorrow on Sky News Joe, saying more or less the same

10/12/162:54 PM

Former Member

What annoys me is that the day after the vote I saw people being interviewed on TV saying that they'd voted out but now had changed their minds.....how many more did that? That's why I would like another vote and if it's still the same, out, then I'll abide by it (although I'll have a hard time accepting it)

10/12/162:59 PM

Garage JoeMember

I was thinking more in terms about them wanting to damn me or silence me. It's a bit 1933 Germany for us. About this time one set of Germans tried to silence another set of Germans. Call me old fashioned but.

10/12/163:09 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Watched the business news this morning it was quite Brexit heavy in content.

The pound losing 18% in value since the result.

Unilever now using Brexit as an excuse to stick an additional 10% on the price of their products, that's 10% to Tescos, not us. But we would obviously feel the effects.

There was a piece about how we have a commitment to pay Europe 10's of Billions which we are obligated to do.

It seems to becoming even more evident that the pro exit group were masking the truth when it came to how much we would save exiting. From the reports I saw this morning the economic forecast for the UK is pretty bleak.

All along I was calling for good independent facts on the consequences of leaving the EU, not information from the two camps. It seems we were let down big style.

They need to haul some of the big mouth Brexiteers onto the tellybox and have them grilled about life post Brexit.

10/13/1610:03 AM

Garage JoeMember

We gave you all the facts about Brexit EC!

'Member I kept banging on about a crisis of hegemony! : smug :

We predicted the dangers to the economy too!

10/13/1610:33 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

And now it serms Unilever have caved in - a bit!

10/13/161:02 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest.

I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night.

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired.

Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

The answers are always out there. nod

10/13/161:09 PM

Former Member

clapping

10/13/161:15 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest.
I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night.

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired.
Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

The answers are always out there.

I don't think they were, for everyone.

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why.

10/13/162:09 PM

Former Member

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:
Dame_Ann_Average posted:

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest.
I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night.

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired.
Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

The answers are always out there.

I don't think they were, for everyone.

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why.

Well we had enough warning that there was a vote coming up.......down to people to search out the info before making their decision?

Yes, I get it, you wouldn't get all the facts but enough to make people think surely?

10/13/162:12 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

I don't think they were, for everyone.

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why.

to be fair EC, it was quite easy to disprove the promises made by Johnston/ Gove/ Farage.

Some voted because they were ignorant of the facts which is true, some voted because they are xenophobic, proven by the 40% rise in reported racist crimes since brexit and some voted because they wanted out country back...from where confused

That is why we need to have a vote on how to leave, we are in a awful mess now without even invoking Article 50

10/13/162:25 PM

Garage JoeMember

The Sunday Times for a Murdoch paper was consistently off message.

Their journalists were queuing up to warn about Brexit even to their "in a nutshell" argument.

"You are in a huge tariff free single market. Vote Brexit and you won't be."

What's confusing about that?!

10/13/162:43 PM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

Boris Johnson's previously unpublished 'pro-EU' column revealed

Boris Johnson said the UK remaining in the EU would be a "boon for the world and for Europe", a previously unpublished newspaper column reveals.

He wrote the column in February, along with a pro-Brexit article that was later published in the Telegraph.

Mr Johnson subsequently became a leading figure in the campaign to leave the European Union.

The Sunday Times has published the pro-Remain column, which it says Mr Johnson wrote to clarify his thoughts.

In it he warned that Brexit could lead to an economic shock, Scottish independence and Russian aggression.

The foreign secretary had previously admitted to writing the piece but its contents had not been known.

Just think: if Boris hadn't joined the Brexit campaign, we'd be calling him "Nostradamus" Johnson after this week, whereas now we're left wondering why he didn't follow his own advice! eek

10/16/163:40 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

It's not all bad though... just heard Priti Patel on radio reassuring everyone they're focused on delivering with the British people voted for. So they must be looking for that £350m for the NHS, right....?

10/16/164:47 AM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Kaffs posted:
It's not all bad though... just heard Priti Patel on radio reassuring everyone they're focused on delivering with the British people voted for. So they must be looking for that £350m for the NHS, right....?

crazy

you mean this and then they announce cuts....when are people going to say enough!

Image result for boris johnson meme referendum

10/16/161:15 PM

Garage JoeMember

It's looking a little more hopeful after today. Apparently our sovereign parliament will have a vote on the negotiations. I'm hoping they'll win the day and vote before the article 50 nonsense.

The baffled Brexiteers are still unable to find any answers about why, when or how.

10/18/163:23 PM

Former Member

Garage Joe posted:
It's looking a little more hopeful after today. Apparently our sovereign parliament will have a vote on the negotiations. I'm hoping they'll win the day and vote before the article 50 nonsense.
The baffled Brexiteers are still unable to find any answers about why, when or how.

Twas always thus. They just wanted us out and the current situation bears that out nod

10/19/1610:10 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

velvet donkey posted:
Lets see what next years Euro elections bring.

There'll no doubt be an argument about whether we should get a vote in it since we're on our way out!

10/19/1611:33 AM

Former Member

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/...PRmx&ocid=TSHDHP

10/26/162:12 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

soooooooooooo, looks like we are going to have to pay the same amount to stay in the single market, sooooooooooo, it looks like we still have to abide by EU rules, sooooooooooo we are now giving firms sweeteners to stay sooooooooooo, the NHS is facing another massive cut....like we said. Wish someone would explain to me invoking article 50 is a good idea?

10/30/162:07 PM

kattymieowwMember 10 years

pound is low,imports costing more from basics like tea to high tech goods etc.The dollar is used not the pound.we are not important,well done brexiteers......not.

10/30/165:32 PM

Garage JoeMember

They don't have a clue.

10/31/1612:33 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

I was reading earlier about the argument about whether parliament should get a vote on the BREXIT deal PM May is trying to broker. She says no, it's up to her alone, whilst the courts have said yes, it shouldn't be her unilateral views of what SHE decides is best for the UK and its population. There was one argument FOR parliament getting a vote that I though put it very well. 'The UK may well have voted to leave the EU, but they didn't vote for HOW we leave or where we'll be going.'

11/3/1611:23 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Sterling has risen sharply following the High Court ruling on Article 50, while the FTSE 100 has fallen back.

11/3/1612:55 PM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
I was reading earlier about the argument about whether parliament should get a vote on the BREXIT deal PM May is trying to broker. She says no, it's up to her alone, whilst the courts have said yes, it shouldn't be her unilateral views of what SHE decides is best for the UK and its population. There was one argument FOR parliament getting a vote that I though put it very well. 'The UK may well have voted to leave the EU, but they didn't vote for HOW we leave or where we'll be going.'

Exactly.

Also I was listening to Gina Miller talk about why she brought the case, and one interesting point she made was that all those Brexiteer politicians who claimed that they wanted to leave Europe in order to restore the UK Parliament’s sovereignty are now perfectly happy to deny Parliament those sovereign rights when it suits them! crazy

As she said: “You can’t have it both ways.” rolleyes

11/3/162:20 PM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

On a lighter note, here's how Theresa May reacted to Boris Johnson's claim that they were going to make Brexit a "Titanic" success:

11/3/162:26 PM

Garage JoeMember

After the lightweight Labour MP's performance on Question Time last night I'm ready to throw in the towel. Appalling!

11/4/163:22 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

PM vows to carry out Brexit 'in full' following High Court ruling

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Theresa May has vowed to carry out Brexit "in full" despite the High Court ruling on leaving the EU.

The prime minister said the government needed to "get on with the job" and MPs should "accept" the referendum result.

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What does this mean?

To me it suggests that SHE doesn't understand the court rulling.

As far as I can see no-one has said the government shouldn't 'get on with the job' nor that they HAVEN'T accepted the referendum result.

What it does say to me is that she wants to impose HER idea of 'Brexit in full' on us regardless of how good, bad or indifferent it may be.

We voted for Brexit, yes. But surely there has to be some sort of discussion as to what form Brexit takes?!!!!!

11/6/162:45 AM

Garage JoeMember

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11/6/167:10 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Words fail me !

11/6/167:48 AM

Garage JoeMember

Sorry! I must stop trying to post attachments whilst on the hoof as it were.

11/6/169:21 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

THey have no idea.....and these are the people we are supposed to trust our future to!

The future's definitely NOT safe in their hands, if you ask me.

11/6/169:36 AM

Eugene's LairMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
PM vows to carry out Brexit 'in full' following High Court ruling
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Theresa May has vowed to carry out Brexit "in full" despite the High Court ruling on leaving the EU.
The prime minister said the government needed to "get on with the job" and MPs should "accept" the referendum result.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does this mean?
To me it suggests that SHE doesn't understand the court rulling.
As far as I can see no-one has said the government shouldn't 'get on with the job' nor that they HAVEN'T accepted the referendum result.
What it does say to me is that she wants to impose HER idea of 'Brexit in full' on us regardless of how good, bad or indifferent it may be.

We voted for Brexit, yes. But surely there has to be some sort of discussion as to what form Brexit takes?!!!!!

I’ve been having to bite my lip over the last few days, but I finally lost it last night. blush One of my friends was talking about political conspiracy theories and how the “Establishment” always manipulates things to its own end, and I suggested (with my tongue only slightly in my cheek ) that if you were looking for conspiracy theories around Brexit then the real conspiracy was not that the “Liberal Intelligentsia” were trying to “rob” the GBP Brexit, but that Theresa May (helped by a certain few Press Barons) was trying to set herself above Parliament so that she would be able to “rob” the GBP of the form of Brexit they wanted.

My ”Conspiracy Theory” goes like this: Referendums aren’t really part of our political system, and they don’t fit into it neatly. The GBP voted to leave, but no one knows what form they want that leaving of Europe to take because they weren’t asked.

So there are essentially two options: firstly, you could hold another referendum on the proposed terms of Brexit. In theory this is the most democratic solution, but in practise it’s likely to be messy, and it’s unlikely the GBP has the stomach for another expensive and divisive referendum so soon.

But never fear: there is another solution. The UK is a Parliamentary Democracy, and we elect MPs for just this job: to debate, alter and vote on decisions on our behalf. But for some reason ( ninja ) Theresa May doesn’t want this to happen, and she’s prepared to go to the Supreme Court in order to deny our MPs their sovereign, constitutional rights! Not only that, but her mates in the Press (who told us all through the Referendum that one of the main reasons for leaving the EU was to restore UK sovereignty!) are for some reason helping her do so by creating a smokescreen by which anyone standing up for the rights of Parliament (and therefore some form of public scrutiny of the terms of Brexit) are accused of trying to “rob” the GBP of their Brexit, and condemned as “Enemies of the People”. rolleyes mad

So if Theresa gets her way next month, what we will have is a PM who hasn’t been put in that position by a public vote, wasn’t responsible for instigating the Brexit vote, and who actually campaigned to remain, will effectively have sole control over the terms by which we leave the EU: and no one else – whether they voted to leave or not – will have any say in the matter. And all the while, the "British" press are doing their best to ensure that the "Remainers" get the blame for it...

[/Rant]

11/6/169:45 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Not bad Eugene. We've basically, independently, come up with the same thing. And we are ALL going to be shafted, whether we voted for or against Brexit!

11/6/169:55 AM

Garage JoeMember

Today I was dismayed to be told that we wouldn't stand in the way of Article 50 and would seek to negotiate how to leave.

I'm going to sleep on it but I'll probably resign tomorrow!

11/6/1611:23 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Garage Joe posted:
Today I was dismayed to be told that we wouldn't stand in the way of Article 50 and would seek to negotiate how to leave.
I'm going to sleep on it but I'll probably resign tomorrow!

And this surprises you GJ ? What is it they say about power? I truly believe there are no conviction politicians these days ....no matter what they say /promise .....it always changes when they get in power .....and too many MPs of all persuasions scared for their jobs ....

11/6/1612:55 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

totally agree with Eugene on everything he says...it's not JC that's all in or nothing, it's career politicians like Tom Watson .

Not one person should be allowed to make such important decisions and especially the likes of May who is hopeless.

This was the most stupidest idea ever, by a stupid government who couldn't even clarify what people were voting for.... and left an even more stupider person in charge of article 50 ...

11/6/161:23 PM

Cold SweatMember 10 years

Off topic but, hey…

I just heard an American NFL announcer describe an exposed quarter-back as being more alone than a high court judge at a UKIP meeting!

11/6/162:06 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Cold Sweat posted:
Off topic but, hey…

I just heard an American NFL announcer describe an exposed quarter-back as being more alone than a high court judge at a UKIP meeting!

Rofl

11/6/162:08 PM

Garage JoeMember

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

totally agree with Eugene on everything he says...it's not JC that's all in or nothing, it's career politicians like Tom Watson .
Not one person should be allowed to make such important decisions and especially the likes of May who is hopeless.
This was the most stupidest idea ever, by a stupid government who couldn't even clarify what people were voting for.... and left an even more stupider person in charge of article 50 ...

Spot on.

11/6/162:16 PM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

The government has urged the Supreme Court to make a decision the "ordinary man and woman" would understand in the landmark legal challenge over Brexit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How absolutely condescending does that sound?

Us poor wee plebs with our limited intellect!

12/5/1610:27 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

So it would appear!

12/5/1610:37 AM

KaffsMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
The government has urged the Supreme Court to make a decision the "ordinary man and woman" would understand in the landmark legal challenge over Brexit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How absolutely condescending does that sound?
Us poor we plebs with our limited intellect!

Well tbf.. the fact that the 'ordinary man and woman' got us into this mess in the first place makes me think that in this instance they may have a point....

12/5/1611:22 AM

XochiMember Memoriam

Kaffs posted:
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
The government has urged the Supreme Court to make a decision the "ordinary man and woman" would understand in the landmark legal challenge over Brexit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How absolutely condescending does that sound?
Us poor we plebs with our limited intellect!
Well tbf.. the fact that the 'ordinary man and woman' got us into this mess in the first place makes me think that in this instance they may have a point....

Go Kaffers! laugh kiss

12/5/1611:48 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

But the question here is not whether Brexit was right or wrong, but whether parliament should vote about the triggering of Article 50!

12/5/1612:26 PM

KaffsMember 10 years

Xochi posted:

Well tbf.. the fact that the 'ordinary man and woman' got us into this mess in the first place makes me think that in this instance they may have a point....
Go Kaffers!

Hello stranger! kiss Good to see you.

I guess (before I'm pounced on) I should say that, no, I don't believe everyone who voted remain is intellectually challenged - but I do think all those people who went blinking into the sunlight the day after the vote saying 'What? but....but..but.. if I've know THAT I'd not have voted the way I did' tipped the vote for leave.

12/5/1612:51 PM

KaffsMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
But the question here is not whether Brexit was right or wrong, but whether parliament should vote about the triggering of Article 50!

Yes, but the comment is about whether or not 100% of the GBP can understand things when it's not explained in words of one syllable.

12/5/1612:52 PM

KaffsMember 10 years

velvet donkey posted:
No pouncing from me kaffs

I know you'd punch my lights out

yeah.. I'm right tough, me

12/5/161:12 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Sir Ivan Rogers - I wonder if he decided that bailing out was the most sensible option?

1/4/1711:09 AM

Garage JoeMember

I think sometimes ones loyalty to the realm comes before ones loyalty to the party.

Having said that there was no need for him to resign since we already knew that there was no plan.

I don't want to keep harping on about it but which of your FMs predicted the current crisis of hegemony long before the vote? Hmm?

1/4/173:28 PM

SaintMember 10 years

And they expect us to trust them whilst they stab each other in the back rolleyes

No wonder I don't vote - liars and schemers, the lot of 'em

1/4/173:50 PM

Garage JoeMember

I think you'll find he stabbed them in the front!

1/5/172:22 AM

Former Member

Saint posted:
And they expect us to trust them whilst they stab each other in the back

No wonder I don't vote - liars and schemers, the lot of 'em

Yes, but if you don't vote, you can't change it....vote for someone else if you're not sure

1/5/171:41 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

The pound is still weak and I saw a report saying fuel prices could hit £1.27-£1.30 a litre by the end of the month, which has a knock on effect of putting up other prices.

Thanks Brexit. rolleyes

1/6/178:35 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

The pound is still weak and I saw a report saying fuel prices could hit £1.27-£1.30 a litre by the end of the month, which has a knock on effect of putting up other prices.

Thanks Brexit.

Where though? I think they are already that in some more rural areas!

1/6/1710:23 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

The pound is still weak and I saw a report saying fuel prices could hit £1.27-£1.30 a litre by the end of the month, which has a knock on effect of putting up other prices.

Thanks Brexit.
Where though? I think they are already that in some more rural areas!

Geographically they did not state, only that now OPEC have agreed to reduce production the price of a barrel is likely to climb. Obviously whether this happens only time will tell save any supermarché price wars.

1/6/1711:38 AM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Hand on heart, I sort of knew it was heading this way at the end of September if something did not change.

I was told by a person who has worked closely with him, he was fantastic at his job and jumped through hoops to try and make things work, he was given an impossible task and nothing to work with...this resignation was no suprise to me!

1/7/1712:49 PM

Former Member

Does that not show though, that no one in government has a clue?

1/7/171:38 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Sprout posted:
Does that not show though, that no one in government has a clue?

I told you at the time that I knew things I couldn't disclose and this one one of them nod

1/7/171:52 PM

Former Member

Dame_Ann_Average posted:
Sprout posted:
Does that not show though, that no one in government has a clue?

I told you at the time that I knew things I couldn't disclose and this one one of them

nod thumb

1/7/171:54 PM

Garage JoeMember

Well we disclosed it!!

'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,

Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:

1/7/172:34 PM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

Garage Joe posted:
Well we disclosed it!!
'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,
Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:

I think if people had taken the time to find out what the EU entails instead of trusting the media we maybe would be in a different situation GJ instead of the positions we are in now, The clue was in the leave campaign ...Farage, Gove and Johnson

1/7/172:44 PM

Former Member

Garage Joe posted:
Well we disclosed it!!
'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,
Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:

Yep, although the EU isn't the best, we could've fought from the inside. Instead people chose to leave, and although it was the vote it was, I still don't think it was the right one nod

1/7/172:47 PM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

The government has seen off an attempt to add conditions to its Brexit bill as a Conservative rebellion was avoided.

MPs rejected a bid by Labour's Chris Leslie to force the government to consult Parliament on the deal struck with the EU before it is finalised.

It came after ministers pledged that a "meaningful" vote would be offered.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meaningful to whom?

Are people that gullible? It's very unlikely to be meaningful for the ordinary 'person in the street.'

2/7/172:53 PM

Garage JoeMember

I still maintain that after the American election and the subsequent Trump farce and fiasco allied to increasing Russian nonsense and general Middle East uncertainty that we at the fashionable end of Europe should stick together.

2/7/174:00 PM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Speaking in the Commons on Monday, Prime Minister Theresa May warned MPs not to "obstruct" the will of UK voters by changing the Brexit bill.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could someone remind/point out to May that the voter (and only some) only voted to LEAVE. They did not vote on the BREXIT BILL. The contents of the bill have been decided upon by May and May alone, as far as I understand.

2/8/172:20 PM

Garage JoeMember

According to the humorous journalist Rod Liddle it's quite probable that the people in the other thread voted Brexit.

2/8/172:43 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

It's a bit late to the party (this picture), but I still kinda like it when I saw it. One of those pictures where the photographer must have been waiting and hoping he would leave in that direction and that way.

2/19/1710:23 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

It's a bit late to the party (this picture), but I still kinda like it when I saw it. One of those pictures where the photographer must have been waiting and hoping he would leave in that direction and that way.

laugh Massive fail !

2/19/1712:55 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

velvet donkey posted:
And they called Gove a traitor Baz. Imagine Boris as PM

laugh True Velvet kiss

2/19/171:35 PM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

David Davis says:-

"However they voted in the referendum, the majority of people now want the prime minister to be able to get on with the job,"

Do they? When was this known? Was there a poll on people's current opinion?

If so why didn't I get invited to take part?

If there was no poll, how can he say WHAT the majority want?

So basically he and May are saying that we should get out of Europe under her terms, REGARDLESS of everyone elses opinions or concerns!

She has said she will take the UK out of the EU even if MPs reject the deal she is offered.

3/12/1712:59 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:
David Davis says:-

"However they voted in the referendum, the majority of people now want the prime minister to be able to get on with the job,"
Do they? When was this known? Was there a poll on people's current opinion?
If so why didn't I get invited to take part?

Yes, I particularly hate when people speak on behalf of me when I have had no input whatsoever.

I'm watching now and he has just been asked a question about breaking election pledge and said "I don't know, I can't speak for everyone else".

eek laugh

3/12/171:55 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

The Lords have just passed the bill which will allow the triggering of Article 50

3/13/173:23 PM

CarnelianMember 10 years

I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?

3/13/176:31 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Carnelian posted:
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?

Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo

3/14/178:10 AM

Dame_Ann_AverageMember VIP10 years

great to have it clarified today, we have no plan and no clue I was reading the full transcript earlier nod

3/16/173:15 PM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

great to have it clarified today, we have no plan and no clue I was reading the full transcript earlier

It's time for all those who voted out to come forward and lay out all their considered plans and ideas to help us transition in the best way possible.

Or as I suspect, the people campaigning to leave never actually had a plan if the vote went thier way.

3/18/175:21 AM

Enthusiastic ContrafibularitiesMember 10 years

Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.

3/20/174:46 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:
Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.

thumb laugh

3/20/178:22 AM

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy ThingMember VIP10 yearsModerator

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:
Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.

Not sure about the gun or the balloons, but I think the mass panic is a distinct possibility!

3/20/1711:23 AM

CarnelianMember 10 years

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo

Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.

3/23/174:46 PM

BazMember VIP10 years

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.

I think they have as much right to their opinions as the * loony* lefty commies But seriously , who are we to decide who has the right to a vote/opinion, and who doesn't .....quite frankly that idea has very disturbing undertones to me ....it's certainly not democratic......far from it ......which is why I said it is a dangerous premise .

3/23/175:37 PM

Garage JoeMember

The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.

I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)

I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.

Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.

3/24/1712:13 AM

Yogi19Member 10 years

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.

What a seriously disturbing post, Carnelian. shake

Carnelianism: a voting system whereby the votes of the left wing intelligentsia carry more weight than those of the right wing, and those whose economic knowledge does not meet the criteria set by Carnelian. rolleyes

Thank heavens we live in a democracy!

3/24/1712:32 AM

Garage JoeMember

At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.

Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.

Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"

3/24/1712:47 AM

Yogi19Member 10 years

Garage Joe posted:
At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"

I've yet to see a better alternative, Joe.

3/24/171:03 AM

Garage JoeMember

My point is that referenda lead to a weak form of government.

3/24/171:23 AM

squiggleMember 10 years

I strongly disagree GJ. We don't have one every decade let alone every month! In this case it was badly needed as the poorer people of society have been the ones who have suffered the most.

Government is there to represent the wishes of the electorate not to rule 'because we know best' as so many of them seem determined to do nowadays. Not often does the ordinary person feel sufficiently motivated to stand up and demand to be heard but in this instance there was an extremely strong groundswell of opinion that 'enough was enough'.

Some might be in love with the whole concept of Europe and all it stands for but to very many of us its increasingly shrill voice handing out its diktats and refusing to account for the money that it wastes daily - on an unprecedented scale - was getting quite alarming. Along with that the ever-increasing 'red tape' mentality makes life very difficult for those at the bottom of the heap. My eldest grandson is quite good with his hands and would like to work in the building trade. Have you any idea how many hoops you have to jump through nowadays to even 'pick up a broom' on a building site? It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. There are loads of lads his age desperately trying to get a job and not much hope for any of them.

3/24/173:24 AM

BazMember VIP10 years

Garage Joe posted:
At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"

Garage Joe posted:
The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.
I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)
I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.
Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.

I agree that our democracy is far from perfect GJ.....but If we believe in one person one vote , which I hope we all do, then we have to accept that it will include the man in the pub , the far right, the far left , and all shades of opinion and * intelligence * in between . What's the alternative ...a totalitarian state ruled by a cabal of the so called expert * informed* telling the rest of us what to do? There is always a bias in any information we glean ....whether we think it's * expert* or not usually depends on whether it gels with our existing opinions /preferences laugh

Moreover , call me naive , but I do wonder whether people would be so disparaging of the opinion of *the man in the pub * if the vote had gone the other way ....or would he suddenly have been miraculously transformed into the the properly informed ?

3/24/178:12 AM

Yogi19Member 10 years

velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.

The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.
And Rog called me a WUM.

No bad Carnelian... 7/10.

Yes, but with you, it stands for Warm-hearted, Upstanding and Marvellous. kiss

3/24/1710:33 AM

Yogi19Member 10 years

velvet donkey posted:
I'll see you on the other side Yogi

When the devil gives me a Nokia.

I lubs you - take that in

Right back atcha kiss

3/24/1712:50 PM

Garage JoeMember

Baz posted:
Garage Joe posted:
At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"

Garage Joe posted:
The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.
I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)
I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.
Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.
I agree that our democracy is far from perfect GJ.....but If we believe in one person one vote , which I hope we all do, then we have to accept that it will include the man in the pub , the far right, the far left , and all shades of opinion and * intelligence * in between . What's the alternative ...a totalitarian state ruled by a cabal of the so called expert * informed* telling the rest of us what to do? There is always a bias in any information we glean ....whether we think it's * expert* or not usually depends on whether it gels with our existing opinions /preferences

Moreover , call me naive , but I do wonder whether people would be so disparaging of the opinion of *the man in the pub * if the vote had gone the other way ....or would he suddenly have been miraculously transformed into the the properly informed ?

Whatever! I prefer the system whereby it's one man, one vote and thus we elect our representatives. They are then free to make decisions or take advice from experts.

When a person with such responsibility suggests that we have had sufficient of experts then we really are in the clarts.

Once again we invite the Brexiteers to give a credible reason for leaving, a way of leaving, and their ultimate goal.

3/24/173:33 PM

Garage JoeMember

What of Momentum and Unite?

3/24/178:52 PM

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PM vows to carry out Brexit 'in full' following High Court ruling

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