Baz posted:

Garage Joe posted:

Baz posted:

~Sweet Summer~ posted:

I was interested to hear on tonight's radio that the petition has over 2 million signatures now, and that some people are suggesting that parliament may debate overruling the decision anyway... 

 

What's the general feeling about this? 

Makes a mockery of democracy IMO 

I believe it's beyond democracy. We have to protect our economy.

Then what was the point of even having a referendum GJ .....and would you have felt it was legitimate to have a rerun if the vote had gone the other way ? 

I'm just taking a lead from that Farrago one. He thought that there should be a rerun if the vote went the other way. He has more influence than me.

The problem some have is that they are over sensitive.  

For example, I say racism was a factor, then it was.  No point denying it. No point the right wing thought police haranguing anyone who says the truth.  If you interviewed 100 racists, almost all of them would say "out" of the EU because they think the EU single market is a source of unfettered immigration.  Most of them would be concerned but a hard core would be actual racists.  

Yet I'm being shouted down for stating the obvious.  I've met many racists in my time and I'm sure most people have, especially if they are one!   I can tell someone who's concerned about immigration (which many are, including myself) and someone who's an out and out racist.  

When Farage put up his Nazi style poster, he knew exactly what he was doing and whose instincts he was mobilising.  The right wing thought police don't like it, but he wouldn't have done it if he didn't think it would help his vote.

Farage is a nasty piece of work but he's not alone.  The right wing rags, like the Sun, Mail and Star, are forever being pulled up on inflaming anti-immigrant sentiment by their poisonous lies and inaccuracies.  Those articles change opinions.   It isn't just an alternative opinion, it's a concerted effort to bend opinion to a rightist agenda by lies.  "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!", so to speak.

I looked up Brexit Street parties on Google, couldn't find any!  How could this be?  We've got our country back from the jackboot of the EU!  Surely this is on par with  VE Day or England's 1966 world cup win?

Farage, the racist, wants it to be known as Independence Day and to be a bank holiday.  Yet most of the country, including the idiot Brexit voters who voted never expecting a Brexit win, now realise we've made a big, big mistake.

What a mess we're in.  I'll tell you what it feels like, it feels like when someone resides themselves that they're going to drink themselves to death.  Then after day 10 of attempted alcoholic suicide finds a reason to live only to sober up and be told by medics that the damage they've done to their organs is irreparable.

This is better! I can read it on my iPad!

I still can't believe that so many people went for the pack of lies option-not a single part of it made political or economic sense. Furthermore the experts predicted a crisis of hegemony, destabilisation of the U.K. and Europe, economic meltdown and they have been proved correct.

We are all looking for a way out of this mess and have little time to achieve it. Europe will not want a toxic neighbour and the idea of them waiting until October is pure fantasy.

Parliament must be recalled, they should declare this result void and have a rerun now that the electorate know the true facts.

Garage Joe posted:

This is better! I can read it on my iPad!

I still can't believe that so many people went for the pack of lies option-not a single part of it made political or economic sense. Furthermore the experts predicted a crisis of hegemony, destabilisation of the U.K. and Europe, economic meltdown and they have been proved correct.

We are all looking for a way out of this mess and have little time to achieve it. Europe will not want a toxic neighbour and the idea of them waiting until October is pure fantasy.

Parliament must be recalled, they should declare this result void and have a rerun now that the electorate know the true facts.

HI Garage, obviously your neck of the woods traditional Labour areas didn't vote to remain but voted to leave.  

I had a chat with a Brummie a few months ago, staying in Norwich for a contract, he was quite left wing, talked with pride about Birmingham being the "Workshop of England" or some such but was adamant that Birmingham, as a city, was finished thanks to Muslims and would vote Ukip.  I tried to persuade him that the Tories were responsible for manufacturing decline, Ukip were neo-liberal idealogues and would shaft people like him and that Corbyn was not like Blair and genuinely for the working class (as I think he is)  but he just wouldn't have it.  He accused me of patronising him because I was from a relatively monocultural white area.

Any thoughts? 

Following the recent "We didn't know what we was voting for, let's try and overturn it. " comments from some on the Remain side, I had my first sighting of the "Having our cake and eating it." wing of the Leave campaign on ITN tonight.

Cornwall voted to leave, but a politician from there was on the news going on about how the region should still get paid the equivalent of the EU subsidy it's now going to lose.

And where does he think this money's going to come from? From the non-existent £350 million that the Brexit lot are now admitting won't be spent on the NHS after all?

Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out 

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government!   It's they who set the laws of this country! 

Sprout posted:

Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out 

 

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government!   It's they who set the laws of this country! 

Couldn't understand Sunderland and a lot of the North East reliant on car manufacture.  All the volume car manufacturers based in the UK are foreign businesses.  They have zero loyalty the UK.  They will leave in a heartbeat unless UK workers can offer ridiculously compromised wages and worker rights, compared to their EU based counter-parts.

We've made ourselves the poor relations to workers in Europe!

Eugene's Lair posted:

Following the recent "We didn't know what we was voting for, let's try and overturn it. " comments from some on the Remain side, I had my first sighting of the "Having our cake and eating it." wing of the Leave campaign on ITN tonight.

 

Cornwall voted to leave, but a politician from there was on the news going on about how the region should still get paid the equivalent of the EU subsidy it's now going to lose.

And where does he think this money's going to come from? From the non-existent £350 million that the Brexit lot are now admitting won't be spent on the NHS after all?

If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable 

On our local North East news they were pointing out the fact that we export more goods to Europe than we import. We have a trade surplus. 

To be fair I think the TV companies sought out the worst examples of humanity to comment but "Turkeys voting for Christmas" does not do it justice.

Non-sequitur ***wittery sans pareil.

I am reminded of John Cleese's partner.

Given the premise that all mackerel are fish, and all fish live under water, she deduces that if she buys kippers it will not rain.

On a more amusing note, I was in the Co-op today. In front of me in the queue were a couple of immigrants. The checkout lad said, "Do you want any help packing your bags?"

i thought, "Blimey! The Nazis have started already!"

Garage Joe posted:

On our local North East news they were pointing out the fact that we export more goods to Europe than we import. We have a trade surplus. 

To be fair I think the TV companies sought out the worst examples of humanity to comment but "Turkeys voting for Christmas" does not do it justice.

Non-sequitur ***wittery sans pareil.

I am reminded of John Cleese's partner.

Given the premise that all mackerel are fish, and all fish live under water, she deduces that if she buys kippers it will not rain.

 

On a more amusing note, I was in the Co-op today. In front of me in the queue were a couple of immigrants. The checkout lad said, "Do you want any help packing your bags?"

i thought, "Blimey! The Nazis have started already!"

Aside from the dark humour, immigrants, it seems are genuinely feeling like they're not wanted.  And with just reason due to the normalisation of anti-immigrant sentiment.  This country has shifted horribly to the right.  I don't know about you Garage Joe but I feel we lost our country on Thursday rather than gained it.

This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland.  I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV.  I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!

Steady on Carnelian-that's going too far.

Wouldn't you prefer them to go all the way to the final and then get beaten by Germany or France by several goals to nil?

Garage Joe posted:

Steady on Carnelian-that's going too far.

 

 

Wouldn't you prefer them to go all the way to the final and then get beaten by Germany or France by several goals to nil?

No!  Because by then I'd be well up for a win!  They need to go out now before I soften my hatred for my own country!   

It's alright for Jeremy Corbyn, he can hate the country for ever!   but my hatred can only last a certain time! 

Carnelian posted:

This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland.  I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV.  I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

 

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!

Crikey, Carnelian!  Come on now, get a grip!  A lot of us are floundering around in a slough of despair after the recent shenanigans and are looking to the England football team to lift our spirits a tad (don't laugh!)

Madame Arcati posted:

Carnelian posted:

This may sound pathetic and bitter - and it is in a way - but I actually want England to lose to Iceland.  I want to piss on the cornflakes of the Little Englanders sitting watching on Sky TV.  I don't want England to do well and for Farage and Johnson to wallow in its reflected glory as if Brexit and football success are intertwinned.

 

This is a bit pathetic and petty, but right now, I just don't like my country very much!

Crikey, Carnelian!  Come on now, get a grip!  A lot of us are floundering around in a slough of despair after the recent shenanigans and are looking to the England football team to lift our spirits a tad (don't laugh!)

I see Labour is going into meltdown now too now 

It is reported that half the shadow cabinet will resign. Hilary Benn has been sacked and Heidi Alexander says she will resign. 

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to explain clearly what I have felt watching Andrew Marr this morning but here goes.

Watching politicians of both main parties and also Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP I get the feeling of a runaway train. They are all busy spouting off about their take on things as a party.  The last thing they seem to think about is what the people who elected them want!  For instance there was a report about one third of people who voted Labour in the last election no longer willing to vote for that party.  As Polly Toynbee said that would be disastrous for the party.  I think Andrew Marr echoed that.  But there is no correlation for them to think why this should be so.  No, we must still forge ahead no matter why these people think the way they do.  I am sure it is the same for the Conservative Party and also for the SNP.  We simply have to get over to them that it is our views that matter, we elected them not to boss us around and impose their wishes upon us but to carry out our wishes.  Anyway that is my, probably naive, view on the matter.

What is the point have politicians on radio/television shows, asking them questions and then talking all over their answers? 

John Pienaar, get ya flippin act together and have the decency to let people answer the questions you put to them 

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does,  read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs, your link doesn't work for me and I get this message:

If the result had been this close, but in the favour of Remain, we would still probably be in a fair degree of turmoil - different turmoil, but turmoil nonetheless, as it has caused so much discord!

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:

If the result had been this close, but in the favour of Remain, we would still probably be in a fair degree of turmoil - different turmoil, but turmoil nonetheless, as it has caused so much discord!

Yes... but we'd be in a turmoil with stronger currency and without the carte blanche that'S been given to racists to abuse anyone they deem not British enough - as the FB link I tried to post shows.  A selection of tweets and FB posts from 'foreigners' many British born who are being old by total strangers things along the of 'we won -now feck off home'    There's even a t shirt...

Kaffs posted:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

 

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does,  read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

 

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?

Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth . 

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state  

If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

Sprout posted:

Hi Carnelan, yeah, Sunderland....(Nissan).....probably one of the biggest employers we have in this part of the country, voted out 

 

I live in South Shields just outside of Sunderland and can't honestly understand their decision!....Truth is peeps.....get on to your government!   It's they who set the laws of this country! 

I went out for a meal in Sheffield with an old schoolfriend last night. He lives and works in Birmingham, in the car industry. He has a lot of contact with Nissan amongst other large and smaller manufacturers. He was flabbergasted at the result from those areas.

We discussed it all at length along with the decline in manufacturing herein Sheffield. Although to some extent we have seen a new lease of life here with the rise in the arts scene (film, TV and music to name a few) and the two strong universities. 

But going back to the original point. I have to question if some people really understood the implications of voting leave when a big part of their local employment is from foreign investors. 

No Baz - of course we don't think 17 million people are racist,  but tell me... are we going to kick out every immigrant?  I don't believe so (hope not or I don't know who will treat my brothers' cancers or fill our teeth)  Do you think that if the exit campaign hadn't relied on letting people believe they would  the result would have been the same?   What would be ideal would be an honest rerun but I know that isn't going to happen - I'm not stupid,  just frustrated and I can't glory in a 'democratic ' result gained by encouraging hate I'm sorry.  Also - how anyone with a conscience can support Farage is beyond me.  

I've been anti SNP all my life and I'm gutted that I find myself now having to seriously consider how I will vote when indyref2 arrives.   Never been so ashamed of our country.

Baz posted:

Kaffs posted:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

 

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does,  read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

 

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?

Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth . 

 

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state  

Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion. 

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:

If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

Fluffs. . Check twitter and FB or just Google post eu referendum racism.  Yes, they would still be out there - but they wouldn't feel quite so emboldened to abuse total strangers in the street imo.

I sat in bed this morning watching the news and politics programmes. I was totally annoyed at the back peddling/arse covering politicians they interviewed. 

Now that we are in a position to put direct post Brexit questions to the leave campaigners, it would appear that they are less than forthcoming with answers to how this fictitious pot of cash is going to be spent. 

I really wanted to punch IDS who was even trying to deny the meaning of the wording of a poster on his battle bus!

Well if you did not believe it IDS, then why did you not ask for its removal.

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:

If the vote was swung by 'racists' for Brexit iy doesn't sit well I agree, but if the result had been for Remain those 'racists' would still have made up a large proportion of the Leave vote, but I get a strong feeling that we would have happily ignored that contingent because of the result being in favour of remaining in Europe!

I think the answer is a resounding yes . And , added to which , I bet there were * racists*  amongst those who voted Remain as well , who saw a vested intersest in voting the way they did . The bottom line is that unless you are going to set tests as to eligibility/suitability etc. then everyone gets a vote ....whether we agree with their principles or not . 

Also... Baz I get the democracy thing but I don't remember an election before when people were going on telly the next day to openly admit they hadn't realised what they we voting for..and sayings they feel they were mislead.

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

Kaffs posted:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

 

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does,  read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

 

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?

Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth . 

 

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state  

Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion. 

But what you are really asking for Kaffs ....and again I don't mean you personally .....is for people to think the way you do . People seem to be saying that everyone who voted Remain is not racist , and had total grasp of the ins and outs ......but I am willing to bet that there were as many that voted Remain who didn't understand what they were voting for as there were Brexit .....but that doesn't devalue their vote , or does it ?? 

Kaffs posted:

Also... Baz I get the democracy thing but I don't remember an election before when people were going on telly the next day to openly admit they hadn't realised what they we voting for..and sayings they feel they were mislead.

But that doesn't nullify my argument ......or are you saying that people of limited intelligence shouldn't vote . Plus , why is it ok to take what is shown on the media ....which we all know is highly selective .....as gospel one day  , and not another ??

So why if they're racist did they vote in Baz?

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

Kaffs posted:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah...198638985&type=3

 

Not sure if the link will work - but if it does,  read, then tell me the racist vote didn't swing it.

 

Not sure the link works unless you're logged in to FB

Kaffs ....the link doesn't work for me either , but I will take your word for it that whatever it was supported the notion that the racist vote swung it ....but let me ask this question .....lets make the Remain camp happy and agree that every single one of the 17 million Brexit voters was a racist , does that mean the result was nul and void ? And if so what does that do to the idea of a democratic vote ?

Secondly , if you ( and I don't mean you personally ) are going to deny people the right to their vote because you don't agree with their principles where do you draw the line ? Do you deny the vote to the fat cats who supposedly bleed the country dry ? The so called Toffs who supposedly walk all over the little man ? Joe Bloggs down the road who won't work ? And so on and so forth . 

 

The bottom line is that we had a Yes /No question and whatever the result there was going to be a large section of the population that was dissatified ....as there is in every general election ......but surely , the alternative is a totalitarian state  

Baz, all we're asking is for people to have thought about things and make their decision accordingly. As has been shown, there are some who clearly didn't and that's affected the result so it's invalid in my opinion. 

But what right have we to judge that Sprout ? People who voted had obviously thought about which way to vote .....just because someone comes to a different conclusion , for whatever reason , doesn't give us the right to say their vote /intelligence/ principles/ reasons .....whatever you want to call it ....carry less weight than our own ? 

I have to go out in a mo.. so I'M not posting and running but put simplisticly,  yes, Baz.  In the same way as I believe people who are in prison shouldn't be entitle to vote.. people who incite racial hatred (which is ilegal last time I checked but maybe not for much longer) should either. 

Now. I must go or my Dad with think I've abandoned him!

Sprout posted:

So why if they're racist did they vote in Baz?

Because it was in their financial interest ? Or they followed blindly a party line ? Their job ? Or as you put it , they didn't understand the question ? There could be a myriad of reasons .....the bottom line is they had a vote and they voted ......and I am willing to bet , had the vote not gone the way it had , no one would have questioned their right to it  

Baz posted:

But what right have we to judge that Sprout ? People who voted had obviously thought about which way to vote .....just because someone comes to a different conclusion , for whatever reason , doesn't give us the right to say their vote /intelligence/ principles/ reasons .....whatever you want to call it ....carry less weight than our own ? 

Well, I disagree with that, not everyone did but there you go. 

Kaffs posted:

I have to go out in a mo.. so I'M not posting and running but put simplisticly,  yes, Baz.  In the same way as I believe people who are in prison shouldn't be entitle to vote.. people who incite racial hatred (which is ilegal last time I checked but maybe not for much longer) should either. 

 

Now. I must go or my Dad with think I've abandoned him!

Awww Yes , my housework is suffering to And i totally agree that INCITING racial hatred is wrong, but sadly  you can't legislate for what people think ......not unless we invoke 1984