So Hobson's "Imperialism" contains racist tropes common to the attitude in 1900s that there were "lesser races" although Hobson puts those references in quotes to distance himself from that thinking.  He also specifically references the Jewish owned business interests as promoters of Imperialism.

 

So is this 'as bad as' the New Testament that specifically condemns the Jewish people as betrayers of their own messiah and the son of God?  The New Testament is by far the source of antisemitism in the history of antisemitic tropes.  

 

The New Testament basically concludes that Jews betrayed, for material gain, their own messiah and the 'true son of god' and the tribulations the Jews face are the consequence of betraying God's son.  The New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever written.

 

So let's buttonhole the Arch Bishop of Canterbury for his support of antisemitism.

 

 

 

 

 

Original Post
El Loro posted:

Carnelian, before buttonholing Justin Welby, you might want to read this pamphlet published by the Holocaust Educational Trust in 2016, specifically pages 10 and 11 which were written by him.
https://www.het.org.uk/images/...-Learned-HET-CST.pdf

A robust condemnation of antisemitism.

While the Archbishop's words are fine, well intentioned and warm but the fact is the New Testament IS the most influential antisemitic text in the history of mankind.  

 

The New Testament makes it quite clear that Jews rejected their messiah and the true son of God for material gain from gentiles.  The New Testament casts Jews as those who would betray God's son for material gain. The New Testament therefore curses Jews for their betrayal of God's true son.  The tribulations of the Jews can be seen (by Christians) as their punishment by God for forsaking his son.

 

The arch bishop's words are well meaning and with the very best of intentions but the text of the New Testament is the biggest justification for persecution of the Jews that has ever been written.  And the text of the New Testament is what the Arch Bishop of Canterbury hold as true.

 

Hobson's Imperialism is antisemitic in places but it is small fry .  Let's cut the crap.  The New Testament is an antisemitic text and all Christians are inherently antisemtic.

 

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:

What claptrap! Being Christian does not mean you believe and adhere to every word written in the bible.

Well it does!  Jesus was after all "betrayed" by Jews for material gain.  That is the central message of Jesus's crucifixion.  His people sold him out for material gain.  

 

That is what drove the pogroms throughout history, that the Jews had sold out God's true son.

 

So if you're going to call Corbyn an antisemite for writing a forward to a book that's chief purpose is to oppose imperialism as a tool of the state subsidising the elite, with a bit of racism and antisemitism thrown in then IT REALLY does follow that  Christians should be treated the same way.  However, the antisemitism of Hobson is nothing compared to the antisemitism of the New Testament.  

The betrayal of their own messiah for material reward by Jews is absolutely CORE to the Biblical account crucifixion of Jesus.  That the 'crowd' demanded Jesus be crucified because they'd been bribed and took the bribe.

It is central and it is as antisemitic as it comes.  It's why Nazi Germany's mostly Catholics tolerated Jewish persecution.

 

Carnelian, as I'm a Christian, I would not wish to say or infer that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic. 

 

I found this interview he gave a few years ago:
https://thirdway.hymnsam.co.uk...ile/far-sighted.aspx

 

It's a lengthy interview but this extract relates to his religious views:

Was there any religion in your family?

Yeah, there was. My mum was a Bible-reading atheist - no, agnostic, probably. She had been brought up in a religious environment and her brother was a vicar, and there was quite a lot of clergy in her family. Going back a lot further, there is a Jewish element in the family, probably from Germany. My father was a Christian and attended church; and the school that I went to was religious - we had hymns and prayers every morning.

The school motto was 'Serve and Obey', I believe.

Was it? I don't remember that but it sounds about right! So, I did go to church as a child, yeah.

At what point did you decide that it wasn't for you?

I'm not anti-religious at all. Not at all. And I probably go to more religious services than most people who are very strong believers. I go to churches, I go to mosques, I go to temples, I go to synagogues. I find religion very interesting. I find the power of faith very interesting. I have friends who are very strongly atheist and wouldn't have anything to do with any faith; but I take a much more relaxed view of it. I think the faith community offers and does a great deal for people. There doesn't have to be wars about relig­ion, there has to be honesty about religion. We have much more in common than separates us.

Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

I'm thinking outside the box and by doing that I've noticed that there's a colossal amount of hypocritical BS in these allegations.  

 

Can you deny that the New Testament is the root cause of antisemitism and it is Christians who have persecuted Jews far more than any other faith?

 

You may call it 'throwing shades' but I call it cutting through barefaced mass hypocrisy.  I'm not sure why you're offended when I am pointing out a basic truth.  The crucifixion, if you take it as a literal series of events that happened - and you really have to even if you can comfortably ignore Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark - you have to conclude that Jews betrayed God and their messiah for material gain. 

 

That is at the very core of historical and present antisemitism.  You can't deny facts just because it's more politically convenient for you to smear Corbyn and Labour as antisemitic. 

 

Sorry, if that's inconvenient .

Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

El Loro posted:

Carnelian, as I'm a Christian, I would not wish to say or infer that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic. 

 

I found this interview he gave a few years ago:
https://thirdway.hymnsam.co.uk...ile/far-sighted.aspx

 

It's a lengthy interview but this extract relates to his religious views:

Was there any religion in your family?

Yeah, there was. My mum was a Bible-reading atheist - no, agnostic, probably. She had been brought up in a religious environment and her brother was a vicar, and there was quite a lot of clergy in her family. Going back a lot further, there is a Jewish element in the family, probably from Germany. My father was a Christian and attended church; and the school that I went to was religious - we had hymns and prayers every morning.

The school motto was 'Serve and Obey', I believe.

Was it? I don't remember that but it sounds about right! So, I did go to church as a child, yeah.

At what point did you decide that it wasn't for you?

I'm not anti-religious at all. Not at all. And I probably go to more religious services than most people who are very strong believers. I go to churches, I go to mosques, I go to temples, I go to synagogues. I find religion very interesting. I find the power of faith very interesting. I have friends who are very strongly atheist and wouldn't have anything to do with any faith; but I take a much more relaxed view of it. I think the faith community offers and does a great deal for people. There doesn't have to be wars about relig­ion, there has to be honesty about religion. We have much more in common than separates us.

I think the point I'm making is that if Corbyn is to be hung for not mentioning antisemitic content in a book he wrote a forward for then it follows that you can't be selective in the content you condemn.  We wouldn't expect the Arch Bishop to apologise for antisemitic content in the Bible before every service.

 

I'm not really saying Christians are all antisemitic and the typical British Christian isn't an antisemite (just like the typical Labour member) but raising a fact that the New Testament is by far the main source and justification for antisemitism.  Long, long before Hitler and conspiracy theories about the Rothschilds 'the good book' informed antisemitism and inspired antisemitism.  

Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

So you assert there is an 'antisemitism problem' in the Labour Party?  So have you spoken to any Labour supporters who've expressed antisemitic views?  Or, as I can guarantee, you are prepared to slur Labour members as antisemite and the party 'has a problem' with antisemitism because your Tory biased media asserts that.  The Nazis and their media saturated public opinion that their nearest rivals, the communists, had burnt down the Reichstag,  YOU would have believed them too!

 

AM I DEFLECTING?  It's in the book, it's clear as day, the New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever.  

 

Follow this link https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties 

 

It states quite clearly that Tory voters and members are more antisemitic than Labour voters and members.  If you want to side with the brute force of establishment pro-Tory lies that's your choice.  However, that's not a legitimate argument.  

Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

So you assert there is an 'antisemitism problem' in the Labour Party?  So have you spoken to any Labour supporters who've expressed antisemitic views?  Or, as I can guarantee, you are prepared to slur Labour members as antisemite and the party 'has a problem' with antisemitism because your Tory biased media asserts that.  The Nazis and their media saturated public opinion that their nearest rivals, the communists, had burnt down the Reichstag,  YOU would have believed them too!

 

AM I DEFLECTING?  It's in the book, it's clear as day, the New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever.  

 

Follow this link https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties 

 

It states quite clearly that Tory voters and members are more antisemitic than Labour voters and members.  If you want to side with the brute force of establishment pro-Tory lies that's your choice.  However, that's not a legitimate argument.  

Your response to criticism of your party is always to say, there’s worse out there - that’s a deflection technique and it certainly doesn’t negate what is going on within your party. If Labour had dealt with the cases of alleged anti semitism in a proper manner, then MPs and members wouldn’t have felt so aggrieved that they felt compelled to resign from the party.

 

Nobody is suggesting that anti semitism is only found within the Labour Party but your party has come under criticism from it’s own members - and however hard you try to shift the blame, there is a case to answer:

- On the Andrew Marr show, Emily Thornberry said she had been approached in the street by party members who had made the most appalling anti Semitic remarks 

- The Jewish Labour Council say there is problem with anti Semitism in your party

- MPs and Party members have left the Labour party and stated it was due to anti semitism within the party.

- It is on record that the Labour Party failed to act - for up to 2 years - on a sizeable number of anti Semitic accusations

- There have been anti Semitic tweets by party members

 

You ask if I, personally, have ever heard a Labour Party member say anything anti Semitic, and my answer is, no.

I can also tell you, I’ve yet to meet a Christian who blames the Jewish people of today for the crucifixion of Christ.

 

If your only defence is to say, ‘there is worse out there’, then I can see why the Labour Party has a problem.

Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

So you assert there is an 'antisemitism problem' in the Labour Party?  So have you spoken to any Labour supporters who've expressed antisemitic views?  Or, as I can guarantee, you are prepared to slur Labour members as antisemite and the party 'has a problem' with antisemitism because your Tory biased media asserts that.  The Nazis and their media saturated public opinion that their nearest rivals, the communists, had burnt down the Reichstag,  YOU would have believed them too!

 

AM I DEFLECTING?  It's in the book, it's clear as day, the New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever.  

 

Follow this link https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties 

 

It states quite clearly that Tory voters and members are more antisemitic than Labour voters and members.  If you want to side with the brute force of establishment pro-Tory lies that's your choice.  However, that's not a legitimate argument.  

Your response to criticism of your party is always to say, there’s worse out there - that’s a deflection technique and it certainly doesn’t negate what is going on within your party. If Labour had dealt with the cases of alleged anti semitism in a proper manner, then MPs and members wouldn’t have felt so aggrieved that they felt compelled to resign from the party.

 

Nobody is suggesting that anti semitism is only found within the Labour Party but your party has come under criticism from it’s own members - and however hard you try to shift the blame, there is a case to answer:

- On the Andrew Marr show, Emily Thornberry said she had been approached in the street by party members who had made the most appalling anti Semitic remarks 

- The Jewish Labour Council say there is problem with anti Semitism in your party

- MPs and Party members have left the Labour party and stated it was due to anti semitism within the party.

- It is on record that the Labour Party failed to act - for up to 2 years - on a sizeable number of anti Semitic accusations

- There have been anti Semitic tweets by party members

 

You ask if I, personally, have ever heard a Labour Party member say anything anti Semitic, and my answer is, no.

I can also tell you, I’ve yet to meet a Christian who blames the Jewish people of today for the crucifixion of Christ.

 

If your only defence is to say, ‘there is worse out there’, then I can see why the Labour Party has a problem.

You won’t be surprised to know I agree with all that Yogi 

 

But I will add that it’s not just the so called “ Tory biased media “ that has commented on the anti Semitic elements in the current Labour Party ....the left of centre Guardian has had articles about it ....and I believe even the head of Momentum has himself admitted there is a problem .  

However,  before I get jumped on from a great height I am NOT saying that the Conservative party doesn’t also have problems , but if the only way to counter criticism of either party is to slag off the bible ....a tome written over 2000 years ago .....then tbh I think I would be keeping my head well below the parapet 

Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

So you assert there is an 'antisemitism problem' in the Labour Party?  So have you spoken to any Labour supporters who've expressed antisemitic views?  Or, as I can guarantee, you are prepared to slur Labour members as antisemite and the party 'has a problem' with antisemitism because your Tory biased media asserts that.  The Nazis and their media saturated public opinion that their nearest rivals, the communists, had burnt down the Reichstag,  YOU would have believed them too!

 

AM I DEFLECTING?  It's in the book, it's clear as day, the New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever.  

 

Follow this link https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties 

 

It states quite clearly that Tory voters and members are more antisemitic than Labour voters and members.  If you want to side with the brute force of establishment pro-Tory lies that's your choice.  However, that's not a legitimate argument.  

Your response to criticism of your party is always to say, there’s worse out there - that’s a deflection technique and it certainly doesn’t negate what is going on within your party. If Labour had dealt with the cases of alleged anti semitism in a proper manner, then MPs and members wouldn’t have felt so aggrieved that they felt compelled to resign from the party.

 

Nobody is suggesting that anti semitism is only found within the Labour Party but your party has come under criticism from it’s own members - and however hard you try to shift the blame, there is a case to answer:

- On the Andrew Marr show, Emily Thornberry said she had been approached in the street by party members who had made the most appalling anti Semitic remarks 

- The Jewish Labour Council say there is problem with anti Semitism in your party

- MPs and Party members have left the Labour party and stated it was due to anti semitism within the party.

- It is on record that the Labour Party failed to act - for up to 2 years - on a sizeable number of anti Semitic accusations

- There have been anti Semitic tweets by party members

 

You ask if I, personally, have ever heard a Labour Party member say anything anti Semitic, and my answer is, no.

I can also tell you, I’ve yet to meet a Christian who blames the Jewish people of today for the crucifixion of Christ.

 

If your only defence is to say, ‘there is worse out there’, then I can see why the Labour Party has a problem.

Unfortunately ALL Christians who follow the crucifixion story as the literal truth MUST regard the Jewish people as co-agents/conspirators in the crucifixion of Jesus. 

 

I expect you haven't put that point to them directly and talked about how the Jews in the New Testament betrayed their messiah, Jesus. and their God.  If you had, they would air two opinions.  Firstly, the Bible is antisemitic and a symptom of its time/politics and that narrative is not worth considering.  Secondly, The Bible is rightly antisemitic and that event is true and it damns the Jewish people in God's eyes as God's betrayers.  Therefore justifying (in their eyes) pogroms and the ultimate horror of the holocaust.

 

Of course, there are 'Labour supporters' or 'Labour members' who've expressed antisemitic sentiment.  Likewise Tory supporters (more often).  However, the New Testament is the behemoth of antisemitic motivation. 

Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:
Carnelian posted:
Yogi19 posted:

Attempting to deflect/excuse anti semitism in the Labour Party by throwing shade at another faith. You couldn’t make it up.

The Labour Party isn't 'another faith' there are many, many Christians in the Labour Party just as there are in most other parties.  However, I am correct to say that Hobson's Imperialism is a drop in the antisemitic ocean compared to the text of the New Testament.

I never said the Labour Party was “another faith”, I said you were throwing shade at another faith ie Christianity in an attempt to deflect/ excuse anti semitism in your party. 

So you assert there is an 'antisemitism problem' in the Labour Party?  So have you spoken to any Labour supporters who've expressed antisemitic views?  Or, as I can guarantee, you are prepared to slur Labour members as antisemite and the party 'has a problem' with antisemitism because your Tory biased media asserts that.  The Nazis and their media saturated public opinion that their nearest rivals, the communists, had burnt down the Reichstag,  YOU would have believed them too!

 

AM I DEFLECTING?  It's in the book, it's clear as day, the New Testament is the most influential antisemitic text ever.  

 

Follow this link https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties 

 

It states quite clearly that Tory voters and members are more antisemitic than Labour voters and members.  If you want to side with the brute force of establishment pro-Tory lies that's your choice.  However, that's not a legitimate argument.  

Your response to criticism of your party is always to say, there’s worse out there - that’s a deflection technique and it certainly doesn’t negate what is going on within your party. If Labour had dealt with the cases of alleged anti semitism in a proper manner, then MPs and members wouldn’t have felt so aggrieved that they felt compelled to resign from the party.

 

Nobody is suggesting that anti semitism is only found within the Labour Party but your party has come under criticism from it’s own members - and however hard you try to shift the blame, there is a case to answer:

- On the Andrew Marr show, Emily Thornberry said she had been approached in the street by party members who had made the most appalling anti Semitic remarks 

- The Jewish Labour Council say there is problem with anti Semitism in your party

- MPs and Party members have left the Labour party and stated it was due to anti semitism within the party.

- It is on record that the Labour Party failed to act - for up to 2 years - on a sizeable number of anti Semitic accusations

- There have been anti Semitic tweets by party members

 

You ask if I, personally, have ever heard a Labour Party member say anything anti Semitic, and my answer is, no.

I can also tell you, I’ve yet to meet a Christian who blames the Jewish people of today for the crucifixion of Christ.

 

If your only defence is to say, ‘there is worse out there’, then I can see why the Labour Party has a problem.

Unfortunately ALL Christians who follow the crucifixion story as the literal truth MUST regard the Jewish people as co-agents/conspirators in the crucifixion of Jesus. 

 

I expect you haven't put that point to them directly and talked about how the Jews in the New Testament betrayed their messiah, Jesus. and their God.  If you had, they would air two opinions.  Firstly, the Bible is antisemitic and a symptom of its time/politics and that narrative is not worth considering.  Secondly, The Bible is rightly antisemitic and that event is true and it damns the Jewish people in God's eyes as God's betrayers.  Therefore justifying (in their eyes) pogroms and the ultimate horror of the holocaust.

 

Of course, there are 'Labour supporters' or 'Labour members' who've expressed antisemitic sentiment.  Likewise Tory supporters (more often).  However, the New Testament is the behemoth of antisemitic motivation. 

In my experience, (christened in the Church of Scotland, attended Sunday School from age two, then attended church), the idea that Christians have harboured a deep-seated hatred of Jews/Romans for more than 2000 years because they hold them responsible for crucifying Christ, is complete twaddle.

 

Re the BiB: I’ve visited Auschwitz to pay my respects to the victims of the Holocaust, as have many, many Christians.

No blame, hate or vengeance, just a deep and abiding sadness at man’s inhumanity to man.

 

When Jesus was nailed to the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”.

His prayer was one of FORGIVENESS.

 

From the Sermon on the Mount:

“But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”

 

Forgiveness and loving your enemies were the teachings of Christ.

I’m struggling to understand how anyone would interpret that as anti Semitism.

 

They say, “What we see depends mainly on what we look for.” I’ll stick to looking for the good.

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Amen Sister! 

Yogi19 posted:
Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Amen Sister! 

Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Hi Baz, I've not read Eckardi. I'm ignorant of this person and his arguments.

 

I understand that the NT is a work of many but modern Christians and those of the last 1000 years plus, understand the NT as the word of God and the "true" account of the martyrdom Jesus.

 

The martyrdom of Jesus and the betrayal of him by his "flock" - for money, by the Jews who Jesus represented.   

 

The problem with the Bible isn't the bigots who take their favoured parts literally or those who pick and choose those parts that favour their zeal, as a work it SHOULD be taken literally by its adherents.  The problem with the bible is The Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Hi Baz, I've not read Eckardi. I'm ignorant of this person and his arguments.

 

I understand that the NT is a work of many but modern Christians and those of the last 1000 years plus, understand the NT as the word of God and the "true" account of the martyrdom Jesus.

 

The martyrdom of Jesus and the betrayal of him by his "flock" - for money, by the Jews who Jesus represented.   

 

The problem with the Bible isn't the bigots who take their favoured parts literally or those who pick and choose those parts that favour their zeal, as a work it SHOULD be taken literally by its adherents.  The problem with the bible is The Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough Carnelian.....I’m guessing that maybe you aren’t religious , but as a historian I think denigrating any book in that way  is the first step on a very slippery road . 

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Hi Baz, I've not read Eckardi. I'm ignorant of this person and his arguments.

 

I understand that the NT is a work of many but modern Christians and those of the last 1000 years plus, understand the NT as the word of God and the "true" account of the martyrdom Jesus.

 

The martyrdom of Jesus and the betrayal of him by his "flock" - for money, by the Jews who Jesus represented.   

 

The problem with the Bible isn't the bigots who take their favoured parts literally or those who pick and choose those parts that favour their zeal, as a work it SHOULD be taken literally by its adherents.  The problem with the bible is The Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough Carnelian.....I’m guessing that maybe you aren’t religious , but as a historian I think denigrating any book in that way  is the first step on a very slippery road . 

I don't think I'm denigrating the Bible.  I think I'm accurately describing it and how it's been interpreted by Christians who drew on it to persecute the Jews.

 

I don't want anyone to burn the bible but really my stance is the absurd hypocritical attacks on Corbyn for writing a forward to a book that among many succinct observations on the class drivers of colonialism contains rather awkward indirect snippets of antisemitism popularly held at the time.  Hobson's Imperialism is a work of its time, much as Oliver Twist or the Merchant of Venice was.  Its heart is in the right place but it betray's the commonly held prejudices of its author. It's born of its British/white imperialist supremacist era.  Hobson talks of 'lesser races' but puts that in quotations.

 

Corbyn's detractors are selectively outraged.  All I'm doing is saying 'but what about the elephant in the room?'

 

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Hi Baz, I've not read Eckardi. I'm ignorant of this person and his arguments.

 

I understand that the NT is a work of many but modern Christians and those of the last 1000 years plus, understand the NT as the word of God and the "true" account of the martyrdom Jesus.

 

The martyrdom of Jesus and the betrayal of him by his "flock" - for money, by the Jews who Jesus represented.   

 

The problem with the Bible isn't the bigots who take their favoured parts literally or those who pick and choose those parts that favour their zeal, as a work it SHOULD be taken literally by its adherents.  The problem with the bible is The Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough Carnelian.....I’m guessing that maybe you aren’t religious , but as a historian I think denigrating any book in that way  is the first step on a very slippery road . 

I don't think I'm denigrating the Bible.  I think I'm accurately describing it and how it's been interpreted by Christians who drew on it to persecute the Jews.

 

I don't want anyone to burn the bible but really my stance is the absurd hypocritical attacks on Corbyn for writing a forward to a book that among many succinct observations on the class drivers of colonialism contains rather awkward indirect snippets of antisemitism popularly held at the time.  Hobson's Imperialism is a work of its time, much as Oliver Twist or the Merchant of Venice was.  Its heart is in the right place but it betray's the commonly held prejudices of its author. It's born of its British/white imperialist supremacist era.  Hobson talks of 'lesser races' but puts that in quotations.

 

Corbyn's detractors are selectively outraged.  All I'm doing is saying 'but what about the elephant in the room?'

 

At last , something we agree on Carnelian I think you’ve just proved my point .....both Hobson and the Bible are products of their time .....and should be seen as such . The difference is that JC didn’t write the forward in 1900 ....unless he’s a lot older than he appears  The bottom line is that , no matter what way you cut it , there is antisemitism in the Labour Party , and despite numerous calls from various factions JC has failed to deal with it ....that’s the crux of the criticisms. 

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

Carnelian , I think you’ve been reading too much Eckardt ...which is fine , if that’s what you believe ....but can I just point out that you talk about the New Testament as if it was one entity , which it isn’t . Actually , it’s several  totally separate *books* , which I believe were compiled by different individuals over many decades. Plus , to all intents and purposes,  it was  written by Jews ....so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument  

 

Moreover , to throw your question back at you , how many Christians have you genuinely  asked the question....or is it the case , as I suspect , that your argument is based entirely on what ...and who ...you’ve read. The bottom line is that sadly fanatics of all persuasions ....and creeds ....will bastardise anything to try and support their world view  . Ergo I would argue that in this case it’s not the Bible which is the problem , it’s the bigots...past and present ... who use it in an attempt to legitimise what they want to do ! From my perspective I would also argue that, historically ,the roots of  antisemitism were more firmly planted in economics than any religious text . 

Hi Baz, I've not read Eckardi. I'm ignorant of this person and his arguments.

 

I understand that the NT is a work of many but modern Christians and those of the last 1000 years plus, understand the NT as the word of God and the "true" account of the martyrdom Jesus.

 

The martyrdom of Jesus and the betrayal of him by his "flock" - for money, by the Jews who Jesus represented.   

 

The problem with the Bible isn't the bigots who take their favoured parts literally or those who pick and choose those parts that favour their zeal, as a work it SHOULD be taken literally by its adherents.  The problem with the bible is The Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough Carnelian.....I’m guessing that maybe you aren’t religious , but as a historian I think denigrating any book in that way  is the first step on a very slippery road . 

I don't think I'm denigrating the Bible.  I think I'm accurately describing it and how it's been interpreted by Christians who drew on it to persecute the Jews.

 

I don't want anyone to burn the bible but really my stance is the absurd hypocritical attacks on Corbyn for writing a forward to a book that among many succinct observations on the class drivers of colonialism contains rather awkward indirect snippets of antisemitism popularly held at the time.  Hobson's Imperialism is a work of its time, much as Oliver Twist or the Merchant of Venice was.  Its heart is in the right place but it betray's the commonly held prejudices of its author. It's born of its British/white imperialist supremacist era.  Hobson talks of 'lesser races' but puts that in quotations.

 

Corbyn's detractors are selectively outraged.  All I'm doing is saying 'but what about the elephant in the room?'

 

At last , something we agree on Carnelian I think you’ve just proved my point .....both Hobson and the Bible are products of their time .....and should be seen as such . The difference is that JC didn’t write the forward in 1900 ....unless he’s a lot older than he appears  The bottom line is that , no matter what way you cut it , there is antisemitism in the Labour Party , and despite numerous calls from various factions JC has failed to deal with it ....that’s the crux of the criticisms. 

I agree, there is AS in the Labour Party, more so in the Tory Party and even more so the right leaning parties like UKIP.  

JC wrote the forward to compliment the author's observations overall on Imperialism, and its negative impact on the UK as a whole but its positive advantage on an elite that clearly benefited. 

 

You say JC has 'failed' to deal with AS, yet AS has DECLINED in the Labour Party since he became leader.  This is a party who's last leader WAS from a Jewish family who the SAME hypocrite Tory press that are supposedly calling out 'antisemitism' ridiculed Ed Miliband for eating a bacon sandwich knowing full well he was a Jew.

 

The Labour Friends of Israel are a party within a party and their loyalty is to Israel not the Labour Party.  They do not give a flying **** about the Palestinian citizens Israeli soldiers mow down.  They are racists accusing non-racists of racism.  The Labour Party doesn't need nor should have racist bigots smearing them as racists.

 

JC's forward is an acknowledgement of the author's verdict on a policy that damaged the country as a whole but aided its powerful monied elite to enrich themselves. 

Carnelian , you seem to be drifting off your topic , which was to do with the Bible and anti semitism compared with the Hobson book , so I think I’ll leave you to it .  Ironically , an election flyer from that Tommy guy  and one from the Labour Party popped through my door at the same time today ....I don’t know who I’m going to vote for yet ,  but it won’t be either of those , so both got binned 

Baz posted:

Carnelian , you seem to be drifting off your topic , which was to do with the Bible and anti semitism compared with the Hobson book , so I think I’ll leave you to it .  Ironically , an election flyer from that Tommy guy  and one from the Labour Party popped through my door at the same time today ....I don’t know who I’m going to vote for yet ,  but it won’t be either of those , so both got binned 

I frequently drift off topic Baz , it's the way I fly!    I got flyer from the Labour Party and one from some English nationalist penises, England Pride or something along those lines.  Suffice to say, it will be for Jezza and his very positive message to roll back the neoliberalism that has dragged thousands of the rich into increased wealth while screwing down the working class and making millions poorer.  It's a no brainer, Jezza and a socialist new deal all the way.

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