velvet donkey posted:

Another referendum. Seriously I could cry.

 

I still think we'd vote no. Some people don't know what a budget deficit is. Ours is13%. Europe demands 3. The SNP are a bunch of jokers.

velvet donkey posted:

It's the UK. It stays that way. Two world wars prove it.

With you all the way, Velvet 

Yogi19 posted:
velvet donkey posted:

Another referendum. Seriously I could cry.

 

I still think we'd vote no. Some people don't know what a budget deficit is. Ours is13%. Europe demands 3. The SNP are a bunch of jokers.

velvet donkey posted:

It's the UK. It stays that way. Two world wars prove it.

With you all the way, Velvet 

And me 

Well, it was the Tories who told the Scottish that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK.  The Tories due to their fear of Ukip then stabbed Scotland in the back by calling a referendum it knew the English might turn into a leave vote.  

 

The bottom line is that the Tories stabbed Scotland in the back and care feck all about the union.  If I were Scottish I'd want out of the union pronto and I do expect the tide is turning toward independence.  Scotland doesn't want to be part of a failed state that no deal Brexit will deliver.

 

Velvet badmouths Labour but it is the cultural arrogance of English Tories (and their voters) treating and thinking of Scotland as a malcontented region of England that would get my back up if I were Scottish.

 

 

velvet donkey posted:

It's the UK. It stays that way. Two world wars prove it.

In WW1 Italy were our allies, in WW2 they were our enemies.  Harking back to WW1 and 2 is just jingoistic bluster.  We are living in the real politik of today, not the first half of the 20th century.

velvet donkey posted:

Why do you dismiss  the war generation. That's how you speak.

My mum is 94. All her teenage were war.

 

My dad was a navigator over  Burmah at seventeen.

 

You'd be a cop  out.

 

 

Feck.

 

 

 

 

Velvet, in that case you must be quiet old, and don't you think you have a responsibility to help those working class people who will follow you?  Aren't you being self centred?

 

 

I don't dismiss the war generation.  The war generation pensioners were treated like dirt by the Tories in the 80s. 

I DISMISS the post war generation baby boomers who act as if they, themselves were on the Normandy beaches and liberated us from the Nazis when most of them grew up on the help of the welfare state set up by Labour and further on benefited from property bubbles, free university education, Thatcher's socialism for the rich fire sale of the utilities. 

 

Plus relatively cheep rents and mortgages by comparison with today.

 

The problem I have with Brextards is they like to pretend they made these sacrifices.  If you are 70 years old now, you were born AFTER the war.  You didn't fight the Nazis, you weren't even conceived!  YOUR parents made the sacrifice, you didn't!  It's about time babyboomer Brexiters stopped playing the martyr for a sacrifice they never made in the first place!

 

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

The terrorist who despises our country has a more noble calling than the WTO rules Brexiter as the terrorist are reacting to a grievance (right or wrong) they aim at our country.  

 

The WTO Brexiter, has no grievance with our country but is prepared to see or risk our people dying because of their dogma.  

 

The WTO Brexiter is less moral than the terrorist.

I'll further elaborate about how the Tories screwed over the war generation.

 

If you fought in the war, you would be on average around 25-35 in 1945.  By 1985 you'd be 65-75, the majority of pensioners were in that age bracket.  This is when Edwina Curry suggested pensioners wrap themselves up in newspapers to keep the cold out, because pensioners who fought in the war were ****ing dying with no heat in their homes in the mid 80s.  

 

The generation that followed the war generation were pampered by Thatcher with cheap mortgages, relatively cheap rents,  (socialism for the rich) utility fire sales free money share options.

 

The majority of today's pensioners were far too young for the war.  

Velvet, so back in the 80s, up and coming capitalism Über Alles Tories like Edwina Curry told people who'd sacrifice their all in the war effort, to just wrap themselves up in newspaper to keep the cold out. 

 

Most of the WW2 generation became pensioners in the 80s and the Tories treated them like shit!  Almost all of that generation are now dead.  Your parents are a very small exception.

 

Carnelian posted:
velvet donkey posted:

Why do you dismiss  the war generation. That's how you speak.

My mum is 94. All her teenage were war.

 

My dad was a navigator over  Burmah at seventeen.

 

You'd be a cop  out.

 

 

Feck.

 

 

 

 

Velvet, in that case you must be quiet old, and don't you think you have a responsibility to help those working class people who will follow you?  Aren't you being self centred?

 

 

I don't dismiss the war generation.  The war generation pensioners were treated like dirt by the Tories in the 80s. 

I DISMISS the post war generation baby boomers who act as if they, themselves were on the Normandy beaches and liberated us from the Nazis when most of them grew up on the help of the welfare state set up by Labour and further on benefited from property bubbles, free university education, Thatcher's socialism for the rich fire sale of the utilities. 

 

Plus relatively cheep rents and mortgages by comparison with today.

 

The problem I have with Brextards is they like to pretend they made these sacrifices.  If you are 70 years old now, you were born AFTER the war.  You didn't fight the Nazis, you weren't even conceived!  YOUR parents made the sacrifice, you didn't!  It's about time babyboomer Brexiters stopped playing the martyr for a sacrifice they never made in the first place!

 

57 and it's quite.

velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:
velvet donkey posted:

Why do you dismiss  the war generation. That's how you speak.

My mum is 94. All her teenage were war.

 

My dad was a navigator over  Burmah at seventeen.

 

You'd be a cop  out.

 

 

Feck.

 

 

 

 

Velvet, in that case you must be quiet old, and don't you think you have a responsibility to help those working class people who will follow you?  Aren't you being self centred?

 

 

I don't dismiss the war generation.  The war generation pensioners were treated like dirt by the Tories in the 80s. 

I DISMISS the post war generation baby boomers who act as if they, themselves were on the Normandy beaches and liberated us from the Nazis when most of them grew up on the help of the welfare state set up by Labour and further on benefited from property bubbles, free university education, Thatcher's socialism for the rich fire sale of the utilities. 

 

Plus relatively cheep rents and mortgages by comparison with today.

 

The problem I have with Brextards is they like to pretend they made these sacrifices.  If you are 70 years old now, you were born AFTER the war.  You didn't fight the Nazis, you weren't even conceived!  YOUR parents made the sacrifice, you didn't!  It's about time babyboomer Brexiters stopped playing the martyr for a sacrifice they never made in the first place!

 

57 and it's quite.

well, you're not that old then!  

Nigel Farage was born in 1964, i.e self entitled baby boomer.  So for his parents to have fought at the very end of WW2 baby fascist **** mother must have been 37.  Bear in mind this the most extreme example that allows for Farage's parents to have been of the age to act in WW2 at the very end of WW2

Carnelian posted:

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

I've never said that.

 

I know it's full scale disaster.

velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

I've never said that.

 

I know it's full scale disaster.

Carnelian , once again you totally devalue your argument with OTT name calling ...ie on this occasion equating brexiteers with terrorists  .

Baz posted:
velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

I've never said that.

 

I know it's full scale disaster.

Carnelian , once again you totally devalue your argument with OTT name calling ...ie on this occasion equating brexiteers with terrorists  .

Well sometimes you have to shove things in people's faces to make them 'get it'

 

So if you're a hard line Brexiter and your opponents argue, with reasonable justification, that medicines won't get through, what do you do?

 

Say it's all 'remoaners' scaremongering?  Well maybe it is!  But if you are a decent person, isn't it you duty to check that claim out find a solid rebuke?  What typically happens is Brexiters just shout "project fear".  Well this is real people's lives, that can't be treated with such knee-jerk dismissal.  

 

Brexiters ARE prepared to sacrifice the potential fatalities for their dogma.  I will NEVER apologies for their casual indifference to the lives of British people.  They ARE no different to terrorists.  Lives are subservient to their objectives.

 

Please explain why I am wrong?

 

Baz, it is YOU who should be apologising to me for rubbishing my valid argument.

 

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

I've never said that.

 

I know it's full scale disaster.

Carnelian , once again you totally devalue your argument with OTT name calling ...ie on this occasion equating brexiteers with terrorists  .

Well sometimes you have to shove things in people's faces to make them 'get it'

 

So if you're a hard line Brexiter and your opponents argue, with reasonable justification, that medicines won't get through, what do you do?

 

Say it's all 'remoaners' scaremongering?  Well maybe it is!  But if you are a decent person, isn't it you duty to check that claim out find a solid rebuke?  What typically happens is Brexiters just shout "project fear".  Well this is real people's lives, that can't be treated with such knee-jerk dismissal.  

 

Brexiters ARE prepared to sacrifice the potential fatalities for their dogma.  I will NEVER apologies for their casual indifference to the lives of British people.  They ARE no different to terrorists.  Lives are subservient to their objectives.

 

Please explain why I am wrong?

 

Baz, it is YOU who should be apologising to me for rubbishing my valid argument.

 

I don’t need to apologise to you Carnelian because ( whether I agree with it or not ) I didn’t rubbish it . You are obviously more than capable of putting together a very cogent political argument , but then you totally infantilise it by breathtakingly sweeping generalisations , and resorting to name calling . THAT was my point 

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
velvet donkey posted:
Carnelian posted:

I'm not being funny Velvet, if you support WTO Brexit you are basically equal to a terrorist.  You are ok to see critically ill people not have their vital medicines, or alternatively, by claiming it is 'project fear' you are blasé enough to take a punt on it not happening while not being ethically responsible  enough to be morally cautious.

 

WTO Brexiters are worse than terrorists.  Terrorists HATE the UK and seek to murder our people.  WTO Brexiters profess to love the UK but don't care if the  consequences of their aim indirectly kill our people.  

I've never said that.

 

I know it's full scale disaster.

Carnelian , once again you totally devalue your argument with OTT name calling ...ie on this occasion equating brexiteers with terrorists  .

Well sometimes you have to shove things in people's faces to make them 'get it'

 

So if you're a hard line Brexiter and your opponents argue, with reasonable justification, that medicines won't get through, what do you do?

 

Say it's all 'remoaners' scaremongering?  Well maybe it is!  But if you are a decent person, isn't it you duty to check that claim out find a solid rebuke?  What typically happens is Brexiters just shout "project fear".  Well this is real people's lives, that can't be treated with such knee-jerk dismissal.  

 

Brexiters ARE prepared to sacrifice the potential fatalities for their dogma.  I will NEVER apologies for their casual indifference to the lives of British people.  They ARE no different to terrorists.  Lives are subservient to their objectives.

 

Please explain why I am wrong?

 

Baz, it is YOU who should be apologising to me for rubbishing my valid argument.

 

I don’t need to apologise to you Carnelian because ( whether I agree with it or not ) I didn’t rubbish it . You are obviously more than capable of putting together a very cogent political argument , but then you totally infantilise it by breathtakingly sweeping generalisations , and resorting to name calling . THAT was my point 

I'm a victim of social media.  I read comments on Twitter/Daily Mail/Express and Telegraph

Also there's the hard right hard liners and the likes of Farage and Ukip. 

Farage is horrible anti democratic bastard who just spits bile at anyone who disagrees with him.

 

Farage

Thinks the civil service should all be pro Brexit - Fascist

Thinks he should negotiate trade deals with America - Trump arse licker and has no political nor constitutional mandate to do so. 

Trump main arse licker, and claims his Trump's  'Go home' racist comments were 'genius'.  The man puts Trump before this country.

 

Then there's Boris Johnson who wrote pro-remain/pro-leave essays.  He is a cynical, compulsive liar, whose been sacked for lying on more than one occasion.  He's the dictionary definition of self serving and self entitled.   Totally untrustworthy.  Yet he's our PM. Our unelected PM.

 

The reason why I have contempt for Brexiters, is so many of them agree with Farage or Boris Johnson and vote for them.  If Brexiters were decent minded people, they wouldn't vote for a facist and racist like Farage nor a bag of self serving shit like Boris Johnson

Baz posted:
Sprout posted:

I don't believe everything I read but if this is true.....

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/...tm_campaign=sharebar

Well it is a Labour rag ....and there is probably an election coming up 

It is a Labour rag, but it is the ONLY 'Labour rag' among a desert of neoliberal Tory backing rags owned by uncountable hard right millionaire tax avoiding press barons domiciled abroad. 

The former Mirror group now owns the Daily Express and that's the Brexit Pravda.

 

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Sprout posted:

I don't believe everything I read but if this is true.....

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/...tm_campaign=sharebar

Well it is a Labour rag ....and there is probably an election coming up 

It is a Labour rag, but it is the ONLY 'Labour rag' among a desert of neoliberal Tory backing rags owned by uncountable hard right millionaire tax avoiding press barons domiciled abroad. 

The former Mirror group now owns the Daily Express and that's the Brexit Pravda.

 

Please don't claim the Guardian or Independent are pro-Labour, the Guardian in particular are intent on ousting Corbyn and replacing him with Tory lite.  The Guadian's idea of the perfect politician is Nick Clegg.  Much the same for the Independent.

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