A Brexit-eye-view!

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

A very wise man ( my dad ) said that once you resort to hate, and name calling, you have already lost the argument ! What the country needs is for our politicians (and their supporters )to stop with the fanatical rhetoric and start looking for ways to talk to each other! Until that happens ....be they far right , or pseudo socialists ....this country will continue to go down the pan.....and the losers will be the very people that need it most !

It would be nice in a perfect world but our Tory politicians are hateful and heartless.  Thousands have died directly due to cruel sanctioning and being made homeless.  This government has blood on their hands.  

 

It would be nice to think the Tories could magically become decent and compassionate but it's not in their DNA.  May's warm words about a prosperous country for all are just cynical politicking.  

 

Baz, sorry, I know you mean the best and respect you for that and your faith in human nature but they deserve my hatred in the same way a wife beater deserves my hatred. They have presided over gratuitous cruelty to the most disadvantaged and their policies have caused unnecessary deaths and harm.  

 

George Osborne is on record as saying that cuts to disability benefits played well with core Tory voters.  It's not just that party, it's their support base too.

 

 

Trust me Carnelian , I have very little faith in human nature ....especially when it comes to politicians  The difference between us is that I tar them all with the same brush , and I’m sorry , but I don’t believe Labour, as it stands now ,  would be any different ....and like Moonie , I certainly wouldn’t trust Corbyn ....and Momentum even less ! But in fact I doubt he would even want to be in charge right now , cos let’s face it , Brexit is a total poisoned chalice . The sad thing is that should there be an election any time soon , for the first time in 5 decades I really can’t think who I’d vote for .

I'm a member of Momentum.  After initial reservations I joined Momentum and they are not the demons they have been painted as by the media.  I can tell you I would not join a bully-boy organisation.  Of course there are hotheads who shame the organisation but the values of Momentum are to promote Corbyn, to repel a establishment big biz approved Blairite kickback and promote a democratic socialist alternative to the failed policies of Thatcherism and Thatcherism lite that delivered the Iraq war, the banking crisis,  zero hours, housing crisis, knife crime crisis, 10 years of wage stagnation and employed Atos to hound the critically ill to their deaths.  

 

Momentum are democratic and totally opposed to antisemitism among all other forms of racism.  

 

You say you don't trust Momentum but how much first hand knowledge do you really know about Momentum people and the values they hold?

 

Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

A very wise man ( my dad ) said that once you resort to hate, and name calling, you have already lost the argument ! What the country needs is for our politicians (and their supporters )to stop with the fanatical rhetoric and start looking for ways to talk to each other! Until that happens ....be they far right , or pseudo socialists ....this country will continue to go down the pan.....and the losers will be the very people that need it most !

It would be nice in a perfect world but our Tory politicians are hateful and heartless.  Thousands have died directly due to cruel sanctioning and being made homeless.  This government has blood on their hands.  

 

It would be nice to think the Tories could magically become decent and compassionate but it's not in their DNA.  May's warm words about a prosperous country for all are just cynical politicking.  

 

Baz, sorry, I know you mean the best and respect you for that and your faith in human nature but they deserve my hatred in the same way a wife beater deserves my hatred. They have presided over gratuitous cruelty to the most disadvantaged and their policies have caused unnecessary deaths and harm.  

 

George Osborne is on record as saying that cuts to disability benefits played well with core Tory voters.  It's not just that party, it's their support base too.

 

 

Trust me Carnelian , I have very little faith in human nature ....especially when it comes to politicians  The difference between us is that I tar them all with the same brush , and I’m sorry , but I don’t believe Labour, as it stands now ,  would be any different ....and like Moonie , I certainly wouldn’t trust Corbyn ....and Momentum even less ! But in fact I doubt he would even want to be in charge right now , cos let’s face it , Brexit is a total poisoned chalice . The sad thing is that should there be an election any time soon , for the first time in 5 decades I really can’t think who I’d vote for .

I'm a member of Momentum.  After initial reservations I joined Momentum and they are not the demons they have been painted as by the media.  I can tell you I would not join a bully-boy organisation.  Of course there are hotheads who shame the organisation but the values of Momentum are to promote Corbyn, to repel a establishment big biz approved Blairite kickback and promote a democratic socialist alternative to the failed policies of Thatcherism and Thatcherism lite that delivered the Iraq war, the banking crisis,  zero hours, housing crisis, knife crime crisis, 10 years of wage stagnation and employed Atos to hound the critically ill to their deaths.  

 

Momentum are democratic and totally opposed to antisemitism among all other forms of racism.  

 

You say you don't trust Momentum but how much first hand knowledge do you really know about Momentum people and the values they hold?

 

I’ve said it before , but I’ll say it again , I tend not to believe the media ....of any shade ...any more than I believe politicians I am probably more aware than most of the various biases . What I do do is try to listen to parliamentary debates.....and points of view ....then make up my own mind .. But, when I see people of any faction ....right or left ..... spewing bile and hatred I lose all faith in their argument ....no matter how cogent that argument may appear on the surface .

 

Like Moonie , I used to vote Labour at one point in time , but .....as with the Conservatives .....someone in the party seems to have pushed the self destruct button recently ....and when seemingly decent people no longer feel able to remain within the party I suggest that maybe there needs to be a serious rethink .  Constitutionally the country is in a horrendous mess ....and what we need...and don’t have ..... is an efficient executive , but equally we need a credible opposition! Instead of this we have one faction of the party bent on blind hero worship , and another faction bent on thwarting  it .....and all the while the country is going to Hell in a handcart ! Moreover , it’s not a nicety to recognise that hate and negativity won’t solve our problems , it will just make the solutions less likely . 

Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
Baz posted:

A very wise man ( my dad ) said that once you resort to hate, and name calling, you have already lost the argument ! What the country needs is for our politicians (and their supporters )to stop with the fanatical rhetoric and start looking for ways to talk to each other! Until that happens ....be they far right , or pseudo socialists ....this country will continue to go down the pan.....and the losers will be the very people that need it most !

It would be nice in a perfect world but our Tory politicians are hateful and heartless.  Thousands have died directly due to cruel sanctioning and being made homeless.  This government has blood on their hands.  

 

It would be nice to think the Tories could magically become decent and compassionate but it's not in their DNA.  May's warm words about a prosperous country for all are just cynical politicking.  

 

Baz, sorry, I know you mean the best and respect you for that and your faith in human nature but they deserve my hatred in the same way a wife beater deserves my hatred. They have presided over gratuitous cruelty to the most disadvantaged and their policies have caused unnecessary deaths and harm.  

 

George Osborne is on record as saying that cuts to disability benefits played well with core Tory voters.  It's not just that party, it's their support base too.

 

 

Trust me Carnelian , I have very little faith in human nature ....especially when it comes to politicians  The difference between us is that I tar them all with the same brush , and I’m sorry , but I don’t believe Labour, as it stands now ,  would be any different ....and like Moonie , I certainly wouldn’t trust Corbyn ....and Momentum even less ! But in fact I doubt he would even want to be in charge right now , cos let’s face it , Brexit is a total poisoned chalice . The sad thing is that should there be an election any time soon , for the first time in 5 decades I really can’t think who I’d vote for .

I'm a member of Momentum.  After initial reservations I joined Momentum and they are not the demons they have been painted as by the media.  I can tell you I would not join a bully-boy organisation.  Of course there are hotheads who shame the organisation but the values of Momentum are to promote Corbyn, to repel a establishment big biz approved Blairite kickback and promote a democratic socialist alternative to the failed policies of Thatcherism and Thatcherism lite that delivered the Iraq war, the banking crisis,  zero hours, housing crisis, knife crime crisis, 10 years of wage stagnation and employed Atos to hound the critically ill to their deaths.  

 

Momentum are democratic and totally opposed to antisemitism among all other forms of racism.  

 

You say you don't trust Momentum but how much first hand knowledge do you really know about Momentum people and the values they hold?

 

I’ve said it before , but I’ll say it again , I tend not to believe the media ....of any shade ...any more than I believe politicians I am probably more aware than most of the various biases . What I do do is try to listen to parliamentary debates.....and points of view ....then make up my own mind .. But, when I see people of any faction ....right or left ..... spewing bile and hatred I lose all faith in their argument ....no matter how cogent that argument may appear on the surface .

 

Like Moonie , I used to vote Labour at one point in time , but .....as with the Conservatives .....someone in the party seems to have pushed the self destruct button recently ....and when seemingly decent people no longer feel able to remain within the party I suggest that maybe there needs to be a serious rethink .  Constitutionally the country is in a horrendous mess ....and what we need...and don’t have ..... is an efficient executive , but equally we need a credible opposition! Instead of this we have one faction of the party bent on blind hero worship , and another faction bent on thwarting  it .....and all the while the country is going to Hell in a handcart ! Moreover , it’s not a nicety to recognise that hate and negativity won’t solve our problems , it will just make the solutions less likely . 

put bluntly, if you don't vote Labour, more people are going to get stabbed, going to find themselves homeless, more children hungry, more children find themselves poorer than their parents, more operations cancelled while vulture capitalists milk the NHS and tax payer. 

 

If you want the same shit as we've had in the last 40 years then go ahead.  Don't complain when you get what you want.

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Stop reading the Daily Mail then!

I can’t remember the last time I read any newspaper.

Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

 

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

 

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian , with the greatest respect , you are talking claptrap ! You have no idea what anyone here votes/voted  ....or what papers they read ...if any ! Personally I’ve not bought  any newspaper for years  As for blood on people’s hands etc . you are intelligent person , but can you not see that hateful diatribes like this are totally counterproductive! All it serves to do is convince politically moderate thinkers that they are right about the likes of the far left and Momentum .

 

If you truly want to sort out the problems you detail above then the country doesn’t need a class war , it needs consensus not division ! And in talking about the last 40 years you simply convince me that what your brand of labour  wants  to do is take us back to the chaos of the 1970s .....a chaos that was so profound that it eventually landed us with Thatcher ...who , before you start ...I detested ! So, how about you take a deep breath , temper your political argument,  and instead tell us constructively how you would go about sorting out the very real problems the country has . 

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

 

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

🤔 so you presume to think I am a Tory voter? 🤔 

The likes of you seek to split the country for your own ends. As for blood on my hands, you don’t know just how wrong you are. 

Oh and by the way I have voted Labour all my life but if you are a symbol of what the Labour Party is going to become then perhaps it is time for a change.

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

az posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

 

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian , with the greatest respect , you are talking claptrap ! You have no idea what anyone here votes/voted  ....or what papers they read ...if any ! Personally I’ve not bought  any newspaper for years  As for blood on people’s hands etc . you are intelligent person , but can you not see that hateful diatribes like this are totally counterproductive! All it serves to do is convince politically moderate thinkers that they are right about the likes of the far left and Momentum .

 

If you truly want to sort out the problems you detail above then the country doesn’t need a class war , it needs consensus not division ! And in talking about the last 40 years you simply convince me that what your brand of labour  wants  to do is take us back to the chaos of the 1970s .....a chaos that was so profound that it eventually landed us with Thatcher ...who , before you start ...I detested ! So, how about you take a deep breath , temper your political argument,  and instead tell us constructively how you would go about sorting out the very real problems the country has . 

Of course the country doesn't need class war but it is has it with the Tories in charge.  Landlord over tenant, boss over employee, rich over poor every time. 

 

If you are waging class war like the Tories are, then it isn't going to help your class war agenda to admit it.  

 

The subject of 'blood on your hands' is relevant.  You might not like my rhetoric and think it extreme or 'unhelpful', but the reality is this government does have blood on its hands.  You are free to think me as a counter productive extremist but the reality is people are dying and people are suffering due to this government.  People made homeless by IDS's reforms are dying well before their time. 

 

Do you know that the average age of homeless woman's death is 42 years old?   This government has made thousands homeless due to the dogma of universal credit. That is more than 30 years before the average mortality for a woman. 

 

Imagine an Isis terrorist shooting a 42 year old woman dead.  Yet that is exactly the same as what the Tories are doing with British women. Isalamic state are murdering less UK citizens before their time than the Tory government.

 

That is murder by this government.  Why don't you care about this?   

 

 

On a softer note, I remember the 70s as a young child, my family was very poor but got better off throughout the decade.  In those days people could aspire now they hit a brick wall of ridiculous rents and property prices. Young people could afford to buy their own homes and weren't living with their parents till their 30s.   The ladder's been pulled up since 1979. 

 

The average person was getting richer then, not like today when they're getting poorer.  Ten years of stagnating wages.

 

It's all right for the baby boomers, they benefited from a fairer society in the 60s and 70s but now kick away the ladder.   We had industry then.  Yes, there are fewer strikes but that's because Thatcher decimated employers with large workforces. Give me 1979 and all the union disruption of that era and I'd take it over this plutocracy in a heartbeat.

 

 

Kaytee posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

Well Katee, castigating others is very much part of the political and moral discourse.  It isn't illegitimate.  Be offended by my comments if that's what pleases you!  I really couldn't give a flying one!   Don't try to censor me!

 

Maybe you object to my repugnance of the Tory party.  They are vermin!  I hate them!  I hate them and the amoral and mostly racist people who vote for them.  That's my freedom of speech to express my hatred of that party and their amoral/mostly racist support base.  So that's just tough! 

 

Politics is a bear pit, passions arise, people get offended.  

 

Everyone is entitled to their views and guess what, so am I!  So are you too Katee! 

Carnelian, I remember the seventies too. 

A story from my family’s past.

 

My father drove a mobile crane during that time. He was assigned a job at British Leyland. A three hour job at most. He got there only to be told that he couldn’t go in and do that job because he wasn’t a union member. 

He didn’t need to be. His job was a good one. Well payed for that time. So after some discussions between his boss and the union at BL. It was decided that my father could go onto the site and do the job if he joined the union. He had no choice but to join the union for the three hours of the job. A three hour job turned into seven hours.

So BL ended up paying the crane hire for 7 hours and not for three.

 

Red Robbo(Derek Robinson) was the shop stewards’ convener at BL at that time. A notorious, some may say, person of his era. 

This is the man I have read was responsible for 523 walkouts at BL in the late seventies. 

Do you really want to plunge us back to that?

Carnelian posted:
az posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian , with the greatest respect , you are talking claptrap ! You have no idea what anyone here votes/voted  ....or what papers they read ...if any ! Personally I’ve not bought  any newspaper for years  As for blood on people’s hands etc . you are intelligent person , but can you not see that hateful diatribes like this are totally counterproductive! All it serves to do is convince politically moderate thinkers that they are right about the likes of the far left and Momentum .

If you truly want to sort out the problems you detail above then the country doesn’t need a class war , it needs consensus not division ! And in talking about the last 40 years you simply convince me that what your brand of labour  wants  to do is take us back to the chaos of the 1970s .....a chaos that was so profound that it eventually landed us with Thatcher ...who , before you start ...I detested ! So, how about you take a deep breath , temper your political argument,  and instead tell us constructively how you would go about sorting out the very real problems the country has . 

Of course the country doesn't need class war but it is has it with the Tories in charge.  Landlord over tenant, boss over employee, rich over poor every time. 

If you are waging class war like the Tories are, then it isn't going to help your class war agenda to admit it.  

The subject of 'blood on your hands' is relevant.  You might not like my rhetoric and think it extreme or 'unhelpful', but the reality is this government does have blood on its hands.  You are free to think me as a counter productive extremist but the reality is people are dying and people are suffering due to this government.  People made homeless by IDS's reforms are dying well before their time. 

Do you know that the average age of homeless woman's death is 42 years old?   This government has made thousands homeless due to the dogma of universal credit. That is more than 30 years before the average mortality for a woman. 

Imagine an Isis terrorist shooting a 42 year old woman dead.  Yet that is exactly the same as what the Tories are doing with British women. Isalamic state are murdering less UK citizens before their time than the Tory government.

That is murder by this government.  Why don't you care about this?   

On a softer note, I remember the 70s as a young child, my family was very poor but got better off throughout the decade.  In those days people could aspire now they hit a brick wall of ridiculous rents and property prices. Young people could afford to buy their own homes and weren't living with their parents till their 30s.   The ladder's been pulled up since 1979. 

The average person was getting richer then, not like today when they're getting poorer.  Ten years of stagnating wages.

It's all right for the baby boomers, they benefited from a fairer society in the 60s and 70s but now kick away the ladder.   We had industry then.  Yes, there are fewer strikes but that's because Thatcher decimated employers with large workforces. Give me 1979 and all the union disruption of that era and I'd take it over this plutocracy in a heartbeat.

Carnelian posted:
Kaytee posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

Well Katee, castigating others is very much part of the political and moral discourse.  It isn't illegitimate.  Be offended by my comments if that's what pleases you!  I really couldn't give a flying one!   Don't try to censor me!

Maybe you object to my repugnance of the Tory party.  They are vermin!  I hate them!  I hate them and the amoral and mostly racist people who vote for them.  That's my freedom of speech to express my hatred of that party and their amoral/mostly racist support base.  So that's just tough! 

Politics is a bear pit, passions arise, people get offended.  

Everyone is entitled to their views and guess what, so am I!  So are you too Katee! 

 

Carnelian , I realise you are passionate about your cause and for that I respect you....but I do feel you see the  world in black and white, which it isn’t . And once again you have failed to explain how you would deal with the problems with society ....and that is what is wrong with politicians/ parliament  at the moment ! All they seem able to do is say what they don’t agree with , without explaining how they would realistically....and I stress realistically ... change anything  .Lets face it , if Labour had produced anything close to a credible opposition we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now !

 

As for the 1970s ....which seems to be where your preferred leader wants to take us ....my recollection is more in tune with Moonie than you....which is ironic,  as he and I are on opposite sides of the centre 😂It was a dreadful time ! I worked for a nationalised power company at the start of the 70s ....and had children by the end of the decade ....and I can assure you that your view of it is definitely rose coloured! The unions ran wild , which led to power cuts , rubbish all over the streets , and economic and political chaos ! The fact that Thatcher got in ....and stayed in ....was because Labours credibility was nil ....and  people who lived through it were determined not to go back there ! 

 

Moreover , as one of the so called baby boom generation , I take issue with yet another one of your generalisations ! I lived in a caravan for several years while we worked hard and saved a deposit for a flat . I’ve been divorced, unemployed , and  a one parent family  ...all .in the days when the only benefits were family allowance and unemployment benefit ..... and  at one point I had to sell my wedding and engagement ring in order to put food on the table ! So , don’t try and tell me I don’t understand what it’s like to struggle .....what I don’t understand ....and to this I’m happy to hold my hands up to .....is the sense of entitlement that seems to pervade society these days ! And lastly , I don’t care if Labour do get in ....as long as Corbin doesn’t !

 

 

Moonie posted:

Carnelian, I remember the seventies too. 

A story from my family’s past.

 

My father drove a mobile crane during that time. He was assigned a job at British Leyland. A three hour job at most. He got there only to be told that he couldn’t go in and do that job because he wasn’t a union member. 

He didn’t need to be. His job was a good one. Well payed for that time. So after some discussions between his boss and the union at BL. It was decided that my father could go onto the site and do the job if he joined the union. He had no choice but to join the union for the three hours of the job. A three hour job turned into seven hours.

So BL ended up paying the crane hire for 7 hours and not for three.

 

Red Robbo(Derek Robinson) was the shop stewards’ convener at BL at that time. A notorious, some may say, person of his era. 

This is the man I have read was responsible for 523 walkouts at BL in the late seventies. 

Do you really want to plunge us back to that?

Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
az posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian , with the greatest respect , you are talking claptrap ! You have no idea what anyone here votes/voted  ....or what papers they read ...if any ! Personally I’ve not bought  any newspaper for years  As for blood on people’s hands etc . you are intelligent person , but can you not see that hateful diatribes like this are totally counterproductive! All it serves to do is convince politically moderate thinkers that they are right about the likes of the far left and Momentum .

If you truly want to sort out the problems you detail above then the country doesn’t need a class war , it needs consensus not division ! And in talking about the last 40 years you simply convince me that what your brand of labour  wants  to do is take us back to the chaos of the 1970s .....a chaos that was so profound that it eventually landed us with Thatcher ...who , before you start ...I detested ! So, how about you take a deep breath , temper your political argument,  and instead tell us constructively how you would go about sorting out the very real problems the country has . 

Of course the country doesn't need class war but it is has it with the Tories in charge.  Landlord over tenant, boss over employee, rich over poor every time. 

If you are waging class war like the Tories are, then it isn't going to help your class war agenda to admit it.  

The subject of 'blood on your hands' is relevant.  You might not like my rhetoric and think it extreme or 'unhelpful', but the reality is this government does have blood on its hands.  You are free to think me as a counter productive extremist but the reality is people are dying and people are suffering due to this government.  People made homeless by IDS's reforms are dying well before their time. 

Do you know that the average age of homeless woman's death is 42 years old?   This government has made thousands homeless due to the dogma of universal credit. That is more than 30 years before the average mortality for a woman. 

Imagine an Isis terrorist shooting a 42 year old woman dead.  Yet that is exactly the same as what the Tories are doing with British women. Isalamic state are murdering less UK citizens before their time than the Tory government.

That is murder by this government.  Why don't you care about this?   

On a softer note, I remember the 70s as a young child, my family was very poor but got better off throughout the decade.  In those days people could aspire now they hit a brick wall of ridiculous rents and property prices. Young people could afford to buy their own homes and weren't living with their parents till their 30s.   The ladder's been pulled up since 1979. 

The average person was getting richer then, not like today when they're getting poorer.  Ten years of stagnating wages.

It's all right for the baby boomers, they benefited from a fairer society in the 60s and 70s but now kick away the ladder.   We had industry then.  Yes, there are fewer strikes but that's because Thatcher decimated employers with large workforces. Give me 1979 and all the union disruption of that era and I'd take it over this plutocracy in a heartbeat.

Carnelian posted:
Kaytee posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

Well Katee, castigating others is very much part of the political and moral discourse.  It isn't illegitimate.  Be offended by my comments if that's what pleases you!  I really couldn't give a flying one!   Don't try to censor me!

Maybe you object to my repugnance of the Tory party.  They are vermin!  I hate them!  I hate them and the amoral and mostly racist people who vote for them.  That's my freedom of speech to express my hatred of that party and their amoral/mostly racist support base.  So that's just tough! 

Politics is a bear pit, passions arise, people get offended.  

Everyone is entitled to their views and guess what, so am I!  So are you too Katee! 

 

Carnelian , I realise you are passionate about your cause and for that I respect you....but I do feel you see the  world in black and white, which it isn’t . And once again you have failed to explain how you would deal with the problems with society ....and that is what is wrong with politicians/ parliament  at the moment ! All they seem able to do is say what they don’t agree with , without explaining how they would realistically....and I stress realistically ... change anything  .Lets face it , if Labour had produced anything close to a credible opposition we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now !

 

As for the 1970s ....which seems to be where your preferred leader wants to take us ....my recollection is more in tune with Moonie than you....which is ironic,  as he and I are on opposite sides of the centre 😂It was a dreadful time ! I worked for a nationalised power company at the start of the 70s ....and had children by the end of the decade ....and I can assure you that your view of it is definitely rose coloured! The unions ran wild , which led to power cuts , rubbish all over the streets , and economic and political chaos ! The fact that Thatcher got in ....and stayed in ....was because Labours credibility was nil ....and  people who lived through it were determined not to go back there ! 

 

Moreover , as one of the so called baby boom generation , I take issue with yet another one of your generalisations ! I lived in a caravan for several years while we worked hard and saved a deposit for a flat . I’ve been divorced, unemployed , and  a one parent family  ...all .in the days when the only benefits were family allowance and unemployment benefit ..... and  at one point I had to sell my wedding and engagement ring in order to put food on the table ! So , don’t try and tell me I don’t understand what it’s like to struggle .....what I don’t understand ....and to this I’m happy to hold my hands up to .....is the sense of entitlement that seems to pervade society these days ! And lastly , I don’t care if Labour do get in ....as long as Corbin doesn’t !

 

 

Bravo  

Carnelian posted:
Kaytee posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

 

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

 

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

 

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

Well Katee, castigating others is very much part of the political and moral discourse.  It isn't illegitimate.  Be offended by my comments if that's what pleases you!  I really couldn't give a flying one!   Don't try to censor me!

 

Maybe you object to my repugnance of the Tory party.  They are vermin!  I hate them!  I hate them and the amoral and mostly racist people who vote for them.  That's my freedom of speech to express my hatred of that party and their amoral/mostly racist support base.  So that's just tough! 

 

Politics is a bear pit, passions arise, people get offended.  

 

Everyone is entitled to their views and guess what, so am I!  So are you too Katee! 

I couldn't care less about parties or their politics, especially at present....however, I do think that some self control over language on here is desirable....but there, you obviously don't,so be it....enjoy preaching and ranting, that is your prerogative , just ignore my comments and I'll ignore yours....have fun!

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Carnelian posted:
az posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Typical, you can’t win an argument so you descend into character assassination. 

If I am part of the problem you and your like will never be part of the solution.

Sorry, this was not character assassination.  EITHER YOU WILL ENABLE THIS GOVERNMENT IN THEIR CLASS WAR or you won't!  You are their enablers!  Therefore an agent of the elite against the majority of the working class and especially the least advantaged of the working class!

It's not character assassination, it's a fair assessment of your callous Tory indifference to the suffering of those less fortunately than you!  You litterally don't care about people being made homeless and sanctioned women turning to the sex trade.  

I haven't 'won' your version of the argument.  You've won  the argument  in your view because you are ok with people being made homeless, single mothers having no money to feed their kids, the chronically ill being sanctioned and those sanctions leading their untimely deaths. 

Sorry, but you really do have blood on your hands!  Tory voters are the amoral lauding themselves as being most virtuous.

Carnelian , with the greatest respect , you are talking claptrap ! You have no idea what anyone here votes/voted  ....or what papers they read ...if any ! Personally I’ve not bought  any newspaper for years  As for blood on people’s hands etc . you are intelligent person , but can you not see that hateful diatribes like this are totally counterproductive! All it serves to do is convince politically moderate thinkers that they are right about the likes of the far left and Momentum .

If you truly want to sort out the problems you detail above then the country doesn’t need a class war , it needs consensus not division ! And in talking about the last 40 years you simply convince me that what your brand of labour  wants  to do is take us back to the chaos of the 1970s .....a chaos that was so profound that it eventually landed us with Thatcher ...who , before you start ...I detested ! So, how about you take a deep breath , temper your political argument,  and instead tell us constructively how you would go about sorting out the very real problems the country has . 

Of course the country doesn't need class war but it is has it with the Tories in charge.  Landlord over tenant, boss over employee, rich over poor every time. 

If you are waging class war like the Tories are, then it isn't going to help your class war agenda to admit it.  

The subject of 'blood on your hands' is relevant.  You might not like my rhetoric and think it extreme or 'unhelpful', but the reality is this government does have blood on its hands.  You are free to think me as a counter productive extremist but the reality is people are dying and people are suffering due to this government.  People made homeless by IDS's reforms are dying well before their time. 

Do you know that the average age of homeless woman's death is 42 years old?   This government has made thousands homeless due to the dogma of universal credit. That is more than 30 years before the average mortality for a woman. 

Imagine an Isis terrorist shooting a 42 year old woman dead.  Yet that is exactly the same as what the Tories are doing with British women. Isalamic state are murdering less UK citizens before their time than the Tory government.

That is murder by this government.  Why don't you care about this?   

On a softer note, I remember the 70s as a young child, my family was very poor but got better off throughout the decade.  In those days people could aspire now they hit a brick wall of ridiculous rents and property prices. Young people could afford to buy their own homes and weren't living with their parents till their 30s.   The ladder's been pulled up since 1979. 

The average person was getting richer then, not like today when they're getting poorer.  Ten years of stagnating wages.

It's all right for the baby boomers, they benefited from a fairer society in the 60s and 70s but now kick away the ladder.   We had industry then.  Yes, there are fewer strikes but that's because Thatcher decimated employers with large workforces. Give me 1979 and all the union disruption of that era and I'd take it over this plutocracy in a heartbeat.

Carnelian posted:
Kaytee posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

Moonie posted:
Baz posted:
Moonie posted:

Is Momentum like Militant Tendency was back in the day?

That’s the way I read it Moonie ...

Unless someone else knows different 

Well you read it wrong then!

If you want to talk about bullies, at least consider that thousands have been bullied out of stable accommodation into homelessness by the Tories.  You really do have to have a perverse set of values if you decide momentum are worse than that.

Momentum have moved with the times.  They are post-Thatcher/post Blair.   They address the issues of the failure of Thatcherism and Blairism.  I don't want to rant on about the failures of Blairism and Thatcherism but if you're going to rationalise that a few hotheads are more 'evil' than things like illegal wars or sanctions that have literally sent people to their early deaths, then go ahead, feel smug and easy in that but know this, you are morally bankrupt!

You are part of the problem not the solution as to why this country is amoral shithole for hundreds of thousands.

Castigating others because they don't share your fanaticism will not result in anything positive, in fact I find your comments offensive...and no, I'm not a rampant Tory,nor am I a supporter of Mr Corbyn, but everyone is entitled to their views, it's how you conduct yourself while expressing them that makes the difference

Well Katee, castigating others is very much part of the political and moral discourse.  It isn't illegitimate.  Be offended by my comments if that's what pleases you!  I really couldn't give a flying one!   Don't try to censor me!

Maybe you object to my repugnance of the Tory party.  They are vermin!  I hate them!  I hate them and the amoral and mostly racist people who vote for them.  That's my freedom of speech to express my hatred of that party and their amoral/mostly racist support base.  So that's just tough! 

Politics is a bear pit, passions arise, people get offended.  

Everyone is entitled to their views and guess what, so am I!  So are you too Katee! 

 

Carnelian , I realise you are passionate about your cause and for that I respect you....but I do feel you see the  world in black and white, which it isn’t . And once again you have failed to explain how you would deal with the problems with society ....and that is what is wrong with politicians/ parliament  at the moment ! All they seem able to do is say what they don’t agree with , without explaining how they would realistically....and I stress realistically ... change anything  .Lets face it , if Labour had produced anything close to a credible opposition we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now !

 

As for the 1970s ....which seems to be where your preferred leader wants to take us ....my recollection is more in tune with Moonie than you....which is ironic,  as he and I are on opposite sides of the centre 😂It was a dreadful time ! I worked for a nationalised power company at the start of the 70s ....and had children by the end of the decade ....and I can assure you that your view of it is definitely rose coloured! The unions ran wild , which led to power cuts , rubbish all over the streets , and economic and political chaos ! The fact that Thatcher got in ....and stayed in ....was because Labours credibility was nil ....and  people who lived through it were determined not to go back there ! 

 

Moreover , as one of the so called baby boom generation , I take issue with yet another one of your generalisations ! I lived in a caravan for several years while we worked hard and saved a deposit for a flat . I’ve been divorced, unemployed , and  a one parent family  ...all .in the days when the only benefits were family allowance and unemployment benefit ..... and  at one point I had to sell my wedding and engagement ring in order to put food on the table ! So , don’t try and tell me I don’t understand what it’s like to struggle .....what I don’t understand ....and to this I’m happy to hold my hands up to .....is the sense of entitlement that seems to pervade society these days ! And lastly , I don’t care if Labour do get in ....as long as Corbin doesn’t !

 

 

Bravo  

Thanks I don't see the world as black and white.  But what I do see is a very rich country where the squeeze upon the poorest has never been worse and while preaching 'no magic money tree' to the poor, the government are doling out free £££££££££s to their supporters and the DUP.

Corbyn doesn't want to take us to the 70s, he wants to take us forward.  There's rubbish on the streets now thanks to privatisation and austerity.  Bin collections reduced. 

 

My family progressed in the 70s, we advanced, my father worked and my family went from almost penniless to comfortable by the end of the 70s.  The society in the 70s enabled people to get a leg up.  Yes there were high taxes, but that prevented the rich from hovering up property like they can today and to create a have and have not divide.

I'm not trying to tell you what it's like to struggle but maybe you've forgotten what it's like to struggle.  Like the working class who as they progressed stuck their two fingers up to those they left in their wake and that contempt turned to rightist hatred of the struggling working class.

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Carnelian posted:

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Carnelian , under the circumstances,  I think you are on very dodgy ground pushing the Tories institutional racism bit ....strikes me both parties need to sort themselves out on that score!  As for the rest of your post , I have to say that I find the hatred engendered in your language just as sad and offensive as I do that of the far right ! And , if as you say , you are a Momentum member , then I’m very sorry , all  your diatribe does is make me even less likely to ever vote for anyone you profess to support . 

Carnelian posted:

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Should we include the anti-Semitism that appears to have reared it’s head in the Labour Party?

Please, note I said “appears to be” as I know there is an ongoing investigation within the Labour Party.

The best thing Gove has ever done was put the brakes on Johnson. Just imagine it - and Gove worked out Johnson wasn't taking it at all seriously that weekend of the barbecue.

 

Country's in the sewer although Rory Stewart at 40/1 might ease the pain.  Just remember the optimism of the 50's and 60's because that is well gone. I won't be voting Tory though after this reveal      Ever.

 

 

twickers posted:

Country's in the sewer although Rory Stewart at 40/1 might ease the pain.  

Thanks for the heads-up, twickers! 

40/1 next Tory leader; 66/1 next PM. 

 

Liked the cut of Stewart's jib for a while: did you know that as well as previously working as a civil servant in the Foreign Office, he was a member of the Labour Party as a teenager? Maybe - just maybe - he could be the unifying figure the country needs. Let's face it: he couldn't be any worse than the current lot...

Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Should we include the anti-Semitism that appears to have reared it’s head in the Labour Party?

Please, note I said “appears to be” as I know there is an ongoing investigation within the Labour Party.

Well it has, even though the Tory Party is more antisemite and more racist than the Labour Party.  Thanks to mainstream media BS we have a mostly racist party (the Tories)  grandstanding over racism and accusing Labour over antisemitism.

Moonie, you are a mug, easily played by mainstream Tory media.  That's sad!

Check out this report and see how you've been played by Tory media.

https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties

 

Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Should we include the anti-Semitism that appears to have reared it’s head in the Labour Party?

Please, note I said “appears to be” as I know there is an ongoing investigation within the Labour Party.

Well it has, even though the Tory Party is more antisemite and more racist than the Labour Party.  Thanks to mainstream media BS we have a mostly racist party (the Tories)  grandstanding over racism and accusing Labour over antisemitism.

Moonie, you are a mug, easily played by mainstream Tory media.  That's sad!

Check out this report and see how you've been played by Tory media.

https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties

 

So, it’s okay to be an anti-Semite and a racist as long as the other party is more so than you are?

 

As for me being a mug, you are entitled to your opinion, even though it is wrong 

I await your next sarcastic witticism of me. Though it is like water off a ducks back 

I look forward to your next diatribe with great interest 

Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:
Moonie posted:
Carnelian posted:

Hopefully they'll be a General Election soon.

 

We have a choice between a social democrat future, with homes for our young people, fair salaries and a more decent society or a country run by a ****ing deranged bitch, or even worse, a piece of shit venal, corrupt, compulsive liar clown c**t Bozo or a right wing backstabbing shit, almost Nazi Gove.  Both utterly untrustworthy and utterly venal.  Both should have been out of politics and would be if the Tory Party wasn't morally bankrupt, institutionally racist and extreme right.

Should we include the anti-Semitism that appears to have reared it’s head in the Labour Party?

Please, note I said “appears to be” as I know there is an ongoing investigation within the Labour Party.

Well it has, even though the Tory Party is more antisemite and more racist than the Labour Party.  Thanks to mainstream media BS we have a mostly racist party (the Tories)  grandstanding over racism and accusing Labour over antisemitism.

Moonie, you are a mug, easily played by mainstream Tory media.  That's sad!

Check out this report and see how you've been played by Tory media.

https://www.channel4.com/news/...sm-political-parties

 

So, it’s okay to be an anti-Semite and a racist as long as the other party is more so than you are?

 

As for me being a mug, you are entitled to your opinion, even though it is wrong 

I await your next sarcastic witticism of me. Though it is like water off a ducks back 

I look forward to your next diatribe with great interest 

Well I think you’re the nicest mug I know Moonie ....so don’t you ever change 

 

I've thought long and hard about posting in here, throwing insults at people that do not have the same political view as you makes you no better than the Tory MP's that squat in the aisles out of sight of Bercow to throw insults at Corbyn.

 

Moonie is a gentleman, and one of the kindest most thoughtful of men I would ever wish to be friends with, he would debate all day long without insulting anyone and doesn't deserve to be called a mug because he doesn't hold your views Carnelian, I'm proud to call him a friend, I'm also proud to be friends with people who are not on the same page politically as me. The country is torn in half, both politically and financially. You have the rich getting richer, the getting by ok, the struggling and the desperate. That's what caused Brexit, look at the largest vote to leave, the really well off voted out because it will make them far richer and the poor voted out because that they believe everything wrong in this country is the immigrants fault, the middle group I have no idea why they voted out....I think instead of insulting people we try and be tolerant to other peoples views, sadly this country doesn't have tolerence for anything lately 

 

I also agree with most of what you say Carnelian, the ranty stuff you sadly lose your point and people are not interested in debating with you. IMO

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×
×